OT: Monopolies & Government

Post by unknown
Arizona and Florida are two states that have allowed utility companies
to control solar power. It is truly amazing what MONEY and Lobbying
can accomplish. And we complain about individual welfare.
http://www.clearpath.org/en/latest/more-featured-stories/utility-monopolies-killing-solar-in-arizona.html?FB052215
or if you like: http://tinyurl.com/qa538vb
Personally, I do not like what the utilities are able to accomplish
via money and lobbyists!

Typical Mike... half truths and big bad corporations... We are
subsidizing Solar and they want the average user to continue subsidizing
it so those with solar can enjoy reduced rates.. Don't want to pay for
distribution or services then disconnect from the grid... Think you
should be paid more for power than it costs the power companies to
generate normally then form your own company...

--
AJ - Too hot in the desert ... now in the mountains

Max

2015-06-05 17:39:07 UTC

I was considering that until I found out what a reactor costs.
On the other hand, if I could find a way to channel all the windbaggery
here I might buy a couple wind generators.

George Anthony

2015-06-05 18:18:03 UTC

Post by Max

I was considering that until I found out what a reactor costs.
On the other hand, if I could find a way to channel all the windbaggery
here I might buy a couple wind generators.

I'll agree as long as you include yourself.

nothermark

2015-06-05 19:59:48 UTC

I would bet folks are. The costs keep dropping.

unknown

2015-06-06 05:27:47 UTC

----------------
D-R, in Florida it is against the law to live off the grid. No shit!

--
Pensacola, FL
http://www.travellogs.us/

Ralph E Lindberg

2015-06-06 13:18:04 UTC

Post by unknown

----------------
D-R, in Florida it is against the law to live off the grid. No shit!

Saw that this week, I was amazed!

D-R

2015-06-06 13:19:21 UTC

Post by unknown
----------------
D-R, in Florida it is against the law to live off the grid. No shit!

One more reason not to live there... There are two other things that
never seem to be noticed about the average roof solar system. One is
the cost if/when the roof need to be replaced. The other is the
problems for the fire department if there is a house fire.

I would also like to know how much various subsidies, grants and
defaulted loans have cost the taxpayers... The same for alcohol
might be interesting..

--
AJ - Too hot in the desert ... now in the mountains

Ralph E Lindberg

2015-06-07 04:58:26 UTC

Post by unknown
----------------
D-R, in Florida it is against the law to live off the grid. No shit!

One more reason not to live there... There are two other things
that never seem to be noticed about the average roof solar system.
One is the cost if/when the roof need to be replaced. The other is the
problems for the fire department if there is a house fire.
I would also like to know how much various subsidies, grants and
defaulted loans have cost the taxpayers... The same for alcohol
might be interesting..

Last year one of my friends homes was impacted by the Oso land slide,
he didn't lose the house, but he lost power, and didn't get it back for
7 months. Yes, SEVEN months.
They went ahead and installed a ground-mount photo- voltaic systen, and
enough deep cycle batteries to get them through 24 to 48 hours with no
power.
Today they average about 9kwh of consumption from the grid, a day, year
around. This time of year he provides more power then he consumes.
Why he went ground was ease to clean. He told me (today, since we were
talking as we demoed wood-working) that on a rainy day all he has to do
is walk around the array and wipe it off.

Ralph E Lindberg

2015-06-07 04:59:34 UTC

Post by unknown
----------------
D-R, in Florida it is against the law to live off the grid. No shit!

One more reason not to live there... There are two other things
that never seem to be noticed about the average roof solar system.
One is the cost if/when the roof need to be replaced. The other is the
problems for the fire department if there is a house fire.
I would also like to know how much various subsidies, grants and
defaulted loans have cost the taxpayers... The same for alcohol
might be interesting..

Also consider the grants, subsides, tax-brakes, etc that Hydro, Coal,
Petro, Nuke, etc all have gotten (and many still get)

D-R

2015-06-07 20:14:45 UTC

Post by Ralph E Lindberg
Also consider the grants, subsides, tax-brakes, etc that Hydro, Coal,
Petro, Nuke, etc all have gotten (and many still get)

I don't like them BUT they are not as offensive as grants, subsidies
or tax-brakes that go to politically correct individuals or loans to
politically correct corporations like Solandra. I know of 3 other solar
companies that closed their doors the day the loans stopped. Are there
any that actually benefited the taxpayer and are still in business??

--
AJ - Too hot in the desert ... now in the mountains

George Anthony

2015-06-07 21:53:43 UTC

Post by Ralph E Lindberg
Also consider the grants, subsides, tax-brakes, etc that Hydro, Coal,
Petro, Nuke, etc all have gotten (and many still get)

I don't like them BUT they are not as offensive as grants, subsidies or
tax-brakes that go to politically correct individuals or loans to
politically correct corporations like Solandra. I know of 3 other solar
companies that closed their doors the day the loans stopped. Are there
any that actually benefited the taxpayer and are still in business??

Tax "brakes" would be preferable to me :-)

Bruce

2015-06-07 22:29:57 UTC

Post by Ralph E Lindberg
Also consider the grants, subsides, tax-brakes, etc that Hydro, Coal,
Petro, Nuke, etc all have gotten (and many still get)

As far as the whole "green energy" nonsense goes, it is companies like
Tesla that really annoys me. They make a car that costs $80k, and then
the government pays people to buy it. That should stop yesterday.

--
Bruce

Everything the State says is a lie, and everything it has is stolen.
Friedrich Nietzsche

nothermark

2015-06-07 22:50:12 UTC

Post by Ralph E Lindberg
Also consider the grants, subsides, tax-brakes, etc that Hydro, Coal,
Petro, Nuke, etc all have gotten (and many still get)

If you look you will find that a lot of the incentives either expired
or are due to expire soon. They were put in place to kick start the
electric vehicle market with no intent to do long term support.

Bruce

2015-06-08 04:56:47 UTC

Post by nothermark

Post by Ralph E Lindberg
Also consider the grants, subsides, tax-brakes, etc that Hydro, Coal,
Petro, Nuke, etc all have gotten (and many still get)

I would have opposed such incentives at any level (they are bad for the
economy), but would have been a lot more forgiving if the goal was a
$15k car for the masses rather than an $80k car.

--
Bruce

Everything the State says is a lie, and everything it has is stolen.
Friedrich Nietzsche

nothermark

2015-06-08 12:12:18 UTC

Post by Ralph E Lindberg
Also consider the grants, subsides, tax-brakes, etc that Hydro, Coal,
Petro, Nuke, etc all have gotten (and many still get)

I would have opposed such incentives at any level (they are bad for the
economy), but would have been a lot more forgiving if the goal was a
$15k car for the masses rather than an $80k car.

I expect the batteries cost more than that. ;-)

Lone Haranguer

2015-06-08 00:49:11 UTC

Post by Ralph E Lindberg
Also consider the grants, subsides, tax-brakes, etc that Hydro, Coal,
Petro, Nuke, etc all have gotten (and many still get)

I don't like them BUT they are not as offensive as grants,
subsidies or tax-brakes that go to politically correct
individuals or loans to politically correct corporations like
Solandra. I know of 3 other solar companies that closed their
doors the day the loans stopped. Are there any that actually
benefited the taxpayer and are still in business??

The "grants" are probably in a bank in Aruba. Why would the
government fund a company on the verge of bankruptcy?

Was anyone auditing the books before the money was doled out?

LZ

vito

2015-06-08 01:39:34 UTC

On Sun, 07 Jun 2015 17:49:11 -0700, Lone Haranguer

Post by Lone Haranguer

Post by Ralph E Lindberg
Also consider the grants, subsides, tax-brakes, etc that Hydro, Coal,
Petro, Nuke, etc all have gotten (and many still get)

I don't like them BUT they are not as offensive as grants,
subsidies or tax-brakes that go to politically correct
individuals or loans to politically correct corporations like
Solandra. I know of 3 other solar companies that closed their
doors the day the loans stopped. Are there any that actually
benefited the taxpayer and are still in business??

The "grants" are probably in a bank in Aruba. Why would the
government fund a company on the verge of bankruptcy?
Was anyone auditing the books before the money was doled out?
LZ

Y'all don't understand. Suppose I had $million. I could invest it at
maybe 4%. Or, if I have connections, I can use a tiny part to form a
shell company. Then I put the rest in shoe boxes and go to
Washington. There I 'buy' $10 million in 'grants' to my nice green
company. The company pays me $million as CEO, my wife another
$500,000 as President and our SIL $500,000 as CEO. I hire some
engineering consultants, who happen to be related to certain congress
critters for big $$ and get trips to resorts on their biz-jets to
discuss plans. When we run the company out of grant money we declare
it bankrupt, having personally more than doubled my $million in just a
few years. And no law has been broken. Then I take $mil of that to
Washington ....

And nobody wonders why congressional candidates eagerly pay $millions
for a 2 year temp job that pays under $200K/YR.

nothermark

2015-06-08 02:48:34 UTC

Post by vito
On Sun, 07 Jun 2015 17:49:11 -0700, Lone Haranguer

Post by Lone Haranguer

Post by Ralph E Lindberg
Also consider the grants, subsides, tax-brakes, etc that Hydro, Coal,
Petro, Nuke, etc all have gotten (and many still get)

I don't like them BUT they are not as offensive as grants,
subsidies or tax-brakes that go to politically correct
individuals or loans to politically correct corporations like
Solandra. I know of 3 other solar companies that closed their
doors the day the loans stopped. Are there any that actually
benefited the taxpayer and are still in business??

The "grants" are probably in a bank in Aruba. Why would the
government fund a company on the verge of bankruptcy?
Was anyone auditing the books before the money was doled out?
LZ

Y'all don't understand. Suppose I had $million. I could invest it at
maybe 4%. Or, if I have connections, I can use a tiny part to form a
shell company. Then I put the rest in shoe boxes and go to
Washington. There I 'buy' $10 million in 'grants' to my nice green
company. The company pays me $million as CEO, my wife another
$500,000 as President and our SIL $500,000 as CEO. I hire some
engineering consultants, who happen to be related to certain congress
critters for big $$ and get trips to resorts on their biz-jets to
discuss plans. When we run the company out of grant money we declare
it bankrupt, having personally more than doubled my $million in just a
few years. And no law has been broken. Then I take $mil of that to
Washington ....
And nobody wonders why congressional candidates eagerly pay $millions
for a 2 year temp job that pays under $200K/YR.

Or you can be a college professor with a couple of grad students hit
the government for a fat grant to study it and let them buy a lot of
new lab and office equipment while it pays for the grad students and
gives you something to play with when not teaching those 10
hours/week. ;-) Got to be a better battery technology/solar
panel/controller tech. etc.

Major Oz

2015-06-06 21:39:33 UTC

Post by unknown
D-R, in Florida it is against the law to live off the grid. No shit!

Got a cite ?

nothermark

2015-06-06 23:23:04 UTC

Post by Major Oz

Post by unknown
D-R, in Florida it is against the law to live off the grid. No shit!

Got a cite ?

Too lazy to look:

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2014/03/09/florida-makes-off-grid-living-illegal-mandates-all-homes-must-be-connected-to-an-electricity-grid/

http://occupywallstreet.net/story/using-cleansing-rhetoric-florida-makes-grid-living-illegal

http://www.offthegridnews.com/radio/your-freedom-to-live-off-the-grid-is-under-attack/

http://www.inquisitr.com/1369086/why-is-florida-and-texas-so-strongly-against-off-grid-living-practices-that-they-deem-it-illegal/

I could go on as these were just several off the first of many pages.
It seems the same technology used by people in remote cabins is being
challenged when used in more urban areas. I wonder what they will
thing when Elon Musk gets his whole house battery into production...

vito

2015-06-07 00:22:16 UTC

Post by nothermark

Post by Major Oz

Post by unknown
D-R, in Florida it is against the law to live off the grid. No shit!

Got a cite ?

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2014/03/09/florida-makes-off-grid-living-illegal-mandates-all-homes-must-be-connected-to-an-electricity-grid/
http://occupywallstreet.net/story/using-cleansing-rhetoric-florida-makes-grid-living-illegal
http://www.offthegridnews.com/radio/your-freedom-to-live-off-the-grid-is-under-attack/
http://www.inquisitr.com/1369086/why-is-florida-and-texas-so-strongly-against-off-grid-living-practices-that-they-deem-it-illegal/
I could go on as these were just several off the first of many pages.
It seems the same technology used by people in remote cabins is being
challenged when used in more urban areas. I wonder what they will
thing when Elon Musk gets his whole house battery into production...

604.1 Facilities required.
Every occupied building shall be provided with an electrical system in
compliance with the requirements of this section and Section 605.

604.2 Service.
The size and usage of appliances and equipment shall serve as a basis
for determining the need for additional facilities in accordance with
NFPA 70. Dwelling units shall be served by a three-wire, 120/240 volt,
single-phase electrical service having a minimum rating of 60 amperes.
However, I see no prohibition of solar/other systems that provide some
or all of a building's needs. A friend in Virginia has an all-solar
house . He even sells power to the power company. But he still is
required to be connected to the grid in order to comply with HVAC
requirements for occupied dwellings. Suspect it is the same in
Florida. Nobody in my 'hood has photo-electric panels but several
have solar water heating panels on their roofs. Lady next door says
her water heater never runs, saving a bundle.

OTOH my Va buddie paid more up front than 10 years electric bills. A
storm wiped out his panels once then the house burned down thanks to a
wiring problem. He'll nay admit it had anything to do with solar
circuits.

nothermark

2015-06-07 00:31:19 UTC

Post by unknown
D-R, in Florida it is against the law to live off the grid. No shit!

Got a cite ?

604.1 Facilities required.
Every occupied building shall be provided with an electrical system in
compliance with the requirements of this section and Section 605.
604.2 Service.
The size and usage of appliances and equipment shall serve as a basis
for determining the need for additional facilities in accordance with
NFPA 70. Dwelling units shall be served by a three-wire, 120/240 volt,
single-phase electrical service having a minimum rating of 60 amperes.
However, I see no prohibition of solar/other systems that provide some
or all of a building's needs. A friend in Virginia has an all-solar
house . He even sells power to the power company. But he still is
required to be connected to the grid in order to comply with HVAC
requirements for occupied dwellings. Suspect it is the same in
Florida. Nobody in my 'hood has photo-electric panels but several
have solar water heating panels on their roofs. Lady next door says
her water heater never runs, saving a bundle.
OTOH my Va buddie paid more up front than 10 years electric bills. A
storm wiped out his panels once then the house burned down thanks to a
wiring problem. He'll nay admit it had anything to do with solar
circuits.

That is why I find these guys interesting:

http://www.nrghomesolar.com/our-story/

Big energy interested in leasing panels in an area that is a known
poor solar area... The Great Lakes basin is good for wind but poor for
solar due to the overcast from the lakes and the air moving on and off
shore due to differential heating.

vito

2015-06-06 00:32:08 UTC

On Fri, 05 Jun 2015 11:24:54 -0500, Mike Hendrix <mike (at) travellogs

It's not limited to utilities nor do two wrongs (corporate &
individual welfare) make a right. OTOH monopolies for utilities
sometimes work well. When I worked for Ma Bell, the company would
show the utility commission its costs and show that it needed about 6%
profit to get operating money. After haqgling the comish would set
rates good for two years. The co. would immediately bust its ass to
get more efficient and thus get more profit. But/so two years later
the costs would be lower so rates would get lower and the cycle would
repeat.

nothermark

2015-06-06 02:29:06 UTC

Post by vito
On Fri, 05 Jun 2015 11:24:54 -0500, Mike Hendrix <mike (at) travellogs

Interesting counter:

http://www.nrghomesolar.com/our-story/

Interesting that they are into leasing...

Bruce

2015-06-06 02:31:28 UTC

Post by vito
On Fri, 05 Jun 2015 11:24:54 -0500, Mike Hendrix <mike (at) travellogs

Yeah and as soon as the feds broke up ATT every one got better service
and prices. When was the last time you paid a long distance fee?

--
Bruce

Everything the State says is a lie, and everything it has is stolen.
Friedrich Nietzsche

George Anthony

2015-06-06 03:00:11 UTC

Post by vito
On Fri, 05 Jun 2015 11:24:54 -0500, Mike Hendrix <mike (at) travellogs

Yeah and as soon as the feds broke up ATT every one got better service
and prices. When was the last time you paid a long distance fee?

Uh, Bruce, wasn't that government meddling?

Bruce

2015-06-06 04:34:34 UTC

Post by George Anthony

Post by vito
On Fri, 05 Jun 2015 11:24:54 -0500, Mike Hendrix <mike (at) travellogs

Yeah and as soon as the feds broke up ATT every one got better service
and prices. When was the last time you paid a long distance fee?

Uh, Bruce, wasn't that government meddling?

Actually, government meddling was the reason ATT existed as a federally
protected monopoly in the first place. It was government stopping their
protection racket.

--
Bruce

Everything the State says is a lie, and everything it has is stolen.
Friedrich Nietzsche

RMcBane

2015-06-06 04:36:47 UTC

Post by vito
On Fri, 05 Jun 2015 11:24:54 -0500, Mike Hendrix
<mike (at) travellogs

Post by unknown
Arizona and Florida are two states that have
allowed utility companies
to control solar power. It is truly amazing
what MONEY and Lobbying
can accomplish. And we complain about
individual welfare.
http://www.clearpath.org/en/latest/more-featured-stories/utility-monopolies-killing-solar-in-arizona.html?FB052215
or if you like: http://tinyurl.com/qa538vb
Personally, I do not like what the utilities
are able to accomplish
via money and lobbyists!

It's not limited to utilities nor do two wrongs
(corporate &
individual welfare) make a right. OTOH
monopolies for utilities
sometimes work well. When I worked for Ma Bell,
the company would
show the utility commission its costs and show
that it needed about 6%
profit to get operating money. After haqgling
the comish would set
rates good for two years. The co. would
immediately bust its ass to
get more efficient and thus get more profit.
But/so two years later
the costs would be lower so rates would get
lower and the cycle would
repeat.

Yeah and as soon as the feds broke up ATT every
one got better service and prices. When was the
last time you paid a long distance fee?

We pay for long distance every month. We didn't
have long distance on the land line, but the wife
wanted to send and receive faxes from home. The
only easy way to send was to add long distance for
a fee on our bill.

--
Richard McBane

vito

2015-06-06 12:41:09 UTC

Post by vito
On Fri, 05 Jun 2015 11:24:54 -0500, Mike Hendrix <mike (at) travellogs

Yeah and as soon as the feds broke up ATT every one got better service
and prices. When was the last time you paid a long distance fee?

My recollection is that quality of service went down hill. Moreover,
long haul rates had been dropping and with satellites replacing land
lines yielding near zero casts rates would have disappeared anyway.

AT&T agreed to the breakup so they could move into data processing.
The managers envisioned terminals in every home connecting to big
central processors via their land lines. Then came the PC followed by
the internet and AT&T is no longer a blue chip.

D-R

2015-06-06 13:25:46 UTC

Post by vito
My recollection is that quality of service went down hill. Moreover,
long haul rates had been dropping and with satellites replacing land
lines yielding near zero casts rates would have disappeared anyway.

Mine also..... Another thing, before some sort of government
intervention some towns had 2 or 3 phone companies and they did not talk
to each other so you needed more than one phone..
Can't believe I am actually saying something positive about government
intervention.

--
AJ -

nothermark

2015-06-06 15:40:31 UTC

It was the same problem with telephone and electric power. That was
the basis for granting limited geographical monopolies.

nothermark

2015-06-06 15:37:25 UTC

Post by vito