Discussion:
Latest "Rate the debate"
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Ron(Fla)
2004-10-14 14:04:04 UTC
Permalink
I just checked MSNBC's poll and Kerry is ahead again.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6243054/
Ron
Jon Porter
2004-10-14 14:10:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron(Fla)
I just checked MSNBC's poll and Kerry is ahead again.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6243054/
Ron
And the polls at this link tell a different story.
http://www.electoral-vote.com/

Depends on which polls you want to put your faith in.
--
Jon
JPinOH

poke the "i" out to reply
Badlander
2004-10-14 17:48:54 UTC
Permalink
"Jon Porter" <***@inetwalk.com> wrote in message news:***@uni-

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6243054/
Post by Jon Porter
Ron
And the polls at this link tell a different story.
http://www.electoral-vote.com/
Depends on which polls you want to put your faith in.
--
We all know the Elector does not reflect the will of the people. It
reflects the will of the states not the people. If it did reflect the
will of the people then Gore would be president.
Guess Who?
2004-10-14 18:36:04 UTC
Permalink
I think Bush did lots better on the last "debate". I liked his
remark on "Strong Women",.....
I grew weary of Kerry blaming everything except ingrown toenails, on
"the current administation". I couldn't even watch it all....
Kerry makes me sick at times, but I'm still going to vote for him.
We need a change of leadership. Too bad it's Kerry.
I sure hope the Republicans offer a better choice in 2008.........
Don
Badlander
2004-10-14 19:21:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guess Who?
I think Bush did lots better on the last "debate". I liked his
remark on "Strong Women",.....
I grew weary of Kerry blaming everything except ingrown toenails,
on
Post by Guess Who?
"the current administation". I couldn't even watch it all....
Kerry makes me sick at times, but I'm still going to vote for him.
We need a change of leadership. Too bad it's Kerry.
I sure hope the Republicans offer a better choice in 2008.........
Don
Well then how do you feel about:

"Uhh -- Gosh, I -- don't think I ever said I'm not worried about Osama
bin Laden. It's kind of one of those, uhh, exaggerations."
-- To quote Dubya (3/13/2003):
"I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about
him." Third Presidential Debate, Tempe, Arizona, Oct. 13, 2004
Bob Hatch
2004-10-15 05:30:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guess Who?
I think Bush did lots better on the last "debate". I liked his
remark on "Strong Women",.....
I grew weary of Kerry blaming everything except ingrown toenails, on
"the current administation".
Do you think that's something new?
Post by Guess Who?
I couldn't even watch it all....
Too bad, you missed some good jabs from Bush.
Post by Guess Who?
Kerry makes me sick at times, but I'm still going to vote for him.
Why?
Post by Guess Who?
We need a change of leadership.
Why?

Too bad it's Kerry.
Post by Guess Who?
I sure hope the Republicans offer a better choice in 2008.........
Don
Last time you voted against Gore. This time you're voting against Bush. Do
you ever vote "for"?
--
"Your money does not cause my poverty. Refusal to believe
this is at the bottom of most bad economic thinking." --P. J. O'Rourke
http://www.bobhatch.com
Guess Who?
2004-10-15 07:58:28 UTC
Permalink
Bob
When I voted for Bush in 2000, I was (at least to me) throwing the
rascals out. I'm doing the same thing in 2004. I may do the same in
2008, so Kerry better show me something!
From the way I see it, Bush has made too many bad choices, and is
running our country into the ground. Invading Iraq, then changing the
reason for it, was the "capper".
I don't know if Iraq can be fixed now, but getting a new face in the
Whitehouse is a place to start, so I'll vote for Kerry "early, &
often"........
I just hope Bush doesn't do something really stupid before he's given
the boot!
Don
GBinNC
2004-10-15 13:11:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guess Who?
I just hope Bush doesn't do something really stupid before he's given
the boot!
Oops. Too late, by several years.

GB in NC
Ben Hogland
2004-10-16 06:37:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guess Who?
I think Bush did lots better on the last "debate". I liked his
remark on "Strong Women",.....
I grew weary of Kerry blaming everything except ingrown toenails,
on
Post by Guess Who?
"the current administation". I couldn't even watch it all....
Kerry makes me sick at times, but I'm still going to vote for him.
We need a change of leadership. Too bad it's Kerry.
I sure hope the Republicans offer a better choice in 2008.........
Don
I think Kerry sucked. He was stiff and nervous. He had many openings of
which he could have attacked Bush on his words but didn't. I guess it
wasn't that Kerry sucked but it was that Bush was so much better than
before. I'm dismayed by all this as I feel that Kerry would be so much
better for our economy and our country.

With that said, Kerry had to be excellent throughout the debates far
exceeding Bush. He wasn't. I think Bush has it in the bag now. I'm
voting for Kerry and there is not question about that. I have no doubt
that my state will pick Kerry but I now have no doubt that Bush will win
overall. With the so called *liberal news* of only a political angle
coming out the week of the election on the public frequencies will be
the right-wing Sinclair Broadcasting company. Now, if I were dishonest,
I would say the media is a *conservative media*, but since I'm more
educated than that, I'll say that the media sure has had a legitimate
hand in the outcome to those that have a half a brain, however a leaning
view point to the right.. It's only those that haven't a value that spew
the media is left leaning and I'm not going to be a part of the spewing
even on the left other than saying, you are *so* insecure and you are
lying through your preverbal teeth.

In my mind, it's the uneducated or the uninformed that are to the right.
They don't understand that a country relies on the middle class to
*sell* their goods. Promoting the middle class dos not involve much
though and does not involve Bush.

We are all gonna feel the pain soon.. I remember the saying that we
don't feel it long but if we get kicked in the balls, we feel as long as
the pain remains. I've been kicked in the balls by Bush and admin and I
won't forget it anytime soon. I've lost my job and my goals are shot for
the next several years at least. I have NEVER had to collect
unemployment insurance Not ever. I'm still not in that role of the
unemployed. I sure don't count on Bush to make it to the point where I
won't have to rely on insurance.. Even with that, I'm a hard worker and
may wind up on my feet soon.

To me those conservative assholes like LZ are just that, assholes.
Occasionally fun to read but far from the reality of life to realize
they are disillusioned; they are the ignorant and the mis-informed..
These people will eventually pay for their un-informed and careless
demeanor but it will be after all us pay. It takes the middle class to
pay their bills and we will understand soon enough. I feel sorry for
those since they just don't seem to have clue or the wherewithal to
understand common logic

So, with that said, you Republicans win. You win with lies. You win with
callousness and conjecture.. You win with every means possible, honest
or not, by design. You win because you compromise yourselves by default.

I'll still respect you but I'll never respect you for voting for Bush
and that's my *honest* opinion. I think all you Bush liker's are nuts
just like you probably think I'm nuts. With that said, I'm just as
resolved to the facts as you. It's just that my facts are right and
yours are far-fetched and wrong. I will not let that get in the way of
friendship even when the others hold totally contrary views. How many of
you can *honestly* write that?

Ben
Guess Who?
2004-10-16 08:39:32 UTC
Permalink
Ben
You're giving up the ship far too early, just like plenty of those
who want Bush to win do, We'll find out the winner on 11/2 - Maybe?
Far as "the media" goes, they want as close a race as possible, so
all of the candidates have to buy ads, lots of them.
I think there's lots of people going to do some "flip flopping"
themselves, when they get in the voting booth...
Regardless of who wins, we're still going to be up to our armpits in
troubles.......
The opera ain't over 'til the fat lady sings, and she's going to wait
for 11/2, to do her aria....
Don
w***@cwnet.com
2004-10-16 14:58:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guess Who?
Ben
You're giving up the ship far too early, just like plenty of those
who want Bush to win do, We'll find out the winner on 11/2 - Maybe?
Far as "the media" goes, they want as close a race as possible, so
all of the candidates have to buy ads, lots of them.
I think there's lots of people going to do some "flip flopping"
themselves, when they get in the voting booth...
Regardless of who wins, we're still going to be up to our armpits in
troubles.......
The opera ain't over 'til the fat lady sings, and she's going to wait
for 11/2, to do her aria....
Don
Having read the bitterness that seems to exist as spouted both here
and on other newsgroups and sources, I am afraid that we may end up
with a "President Edwards, ambulance chaser". Kerry has made enough
enemies that someone might decide to take him out like the earlier
JFK. Food for thought...

George
HD in NY
2004-10-16 16:20:12 UTC
Permalink
***@cwnet.com wrote:
snipped
Post by w***@cwnet.com
Having read the bitterness that seems to exist as spouted both here
and on other newsgroups and sources, I am afraid that we may end up
with a "President Edwards, ambulance chaser". Kerry has made enough
enemies that someone might decide to take him out like the earlier
JFK. Food for thought...
George
You make a good point George.
HD in CNY
Ben Hogland
2004-10-16 20:30:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guess Who?
Ben
You're giving up the ship far too early, just like plenty of those
who want Bush to win do, We'll find out the winner on 11/2 -
Maybe?
Post by Guess Who?
Far as "the media" goes, they want as close a race as possible, so
all of the candidates have to buy ads, lots of them.
I think there's lots of people going to do some "flip flopping"
themselves, when they get in the voting booth...
Regardless of who wins, we're still going to be up to our armpits in
troubles.......
The opera ain't over 'til the fat lady sings, and she's going to wait
for 11/2, to do her aria....
Don
Yeah, you're correct, of course..

Anyway, I've voted already. I'm probably one of only a very few here on
the NG that's already voted. I sent my absentee ballot in today. Now
I'll just wait to see the results on Tuesday the 2nd and hope for the
best.

Ben
LKing37516
2004-10-17 00:14:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Hogland
Anyway, I've voted already. I'm probably one of only a very few here on
the NG that's already voted. I sent my absentee ballot in today. Now
I'll just wait to see the results on Tuesday the 2nd and hope for the
best.
Hi Ben;
Me to--- Thanks to the fact that I live in one of the most progressive states,
I got my "vote by mail" today and promptly sent it in with my votes on not only
national concerns but on our local races. Thats where it really counts, unless
the feds try to overturn our well thought out ballot measures.
Many will snotup and bawl about Oregons right to die, marijuana
decrimilization, 3 strikes and your out, bottle bill, ect, but For the record,
we by POPULAR VOTE OF THE PEOPLE, with our inatitive process, have started
many mini revs. in this country.
My vote is in and the election is OVER. Thank God. Cecil
Ben Hogland
2004-10-17 00:24:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by LKing37516
Hi Ben;
Me to--- Thanks to the fact that I live in one of the most progressive states,
I got my "vote by mail" today and promptly sent it in with my votes on not only
national concerns but on our local races. Thats where it really counts, unless
the feds try to overturn our well thought out ballot measures.
Many will snotup and bawl about Oregons right to die, marijuana
decrimilization, 3 strikes and your out, bottle bill, ect, but For the record,
we by POPULAR VOTE OF THE PEOPLE, with our inatitive process, have started
many mini revs. in this country.
My vote is in and the election is OVER. Thank God. Cecil
Good on you, Cecil. I too feel a bit of relief now that I've voted the
ballot..

Ben
Guess Who?
2004-10-17 01:21:42 UTC
Permalink
Ben
It's,
"Fool me once, shame on you! Fool me twice, and you'll never fool me
again!"
At least, that's the way the Prez says it.
Trouble is, with someone doesn't even know when they've been "fooled",
he can't start counting.............
Don
Lon VanOstran
2004-10-16 12:55:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Hogland
In my mind, it's the uneducated or the uninformed that are to the right.
They don't understand that a country relies on the middle class to
*sell* their goods.
The problem seems to be that YOU don't comprehend what is good for the middle
class, nor WHO ends up paying the taxes, no matter WHAT the intent. If ALL of
the money of the rich is taken for taxes, it won't balance the budget, but it
WILL destroy the economy. Taking the money which FUELS the economy, and
CREATES jobs, not only makes Liberals feel good, but destroys the future.

Raising taxes does NOT increase the revenue. CUTTING taxes does. I know that's
too complex for simple minds, but even JFKennedy knew it. Greenspan knows it.
The really sad truth is that KERRY knows it and doesn't mind destroying the
economy, so long as he wins and can find a way to blame his failures upon Bush.

IMHO, Liberals have sponsored nearly every program which has destroyed public
education, and they have done so for a reason. Uneducated people who are
uncapable of comprehending reality, vote for those who keep them uneducated and
uninformed. Those uneducated and unimformed people gladly support those who
hand them their chains, when those chains are in the form of a check.

Lon
Carl A.
2004-10-16 14:35:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Hogland
So, with that said, you Republicans win. You win with lies. You win with
callousness and conjecture.. You win with every means possible, honest
or not, by design. You win because you compromise yourselves by default.
Ben, please post the Republican equivalent to the Democrat Playbook.


Democrat playbook opened to criticism
Leaked page reveals push to use tactic of 'pre-emptive strike'

By Peggy Lowe, Rocky Mountain News ***@RockyMountainNews
October 15, 2004

Democrats got caught with their election playbook open Thursday when a leaked
page was published urging operatives to lodge a "pre-emptive strike" of claiming
voter intimidation, whether it's true or not.

Gleeful Republicans quickly called a press conference after the page from The
Drudge Report went online, in which they denounced "a new low in gutter
politics" that "played the race card."

"They want to rile up the minorities to denounce tactics that do not exist,"
said Ted Halaby, chairman of the Colorado GOP.

Halaby said it was "a criminal act to falsely allege something that does not
exist." He called on the state Democrats to "denounce and renounce" the manual's
teachings.

But Democrats, who verified as authentic the page from a playbook called
"Colorado Election Day Manual: A detailed guide to voting in Colorado," said
they must be pro-active to assure that minorities and all others are not scared
away from the polls.

Sue Casey, head of the Kerry-Edwards Colorado campaign, said the Republicans are
also happy to plant a negative story to detract from what reporters should be
writing about.

"Look what we're talking about today instead of the fact that George Bush lost
three debates and is fading, instead of not having health care, instead of
having a disaster in Iraq," she said.

The manual, at www.drudgereport.com, instructs operatives to hunt for Republican
scare tactics that could keep voters from the polls. Democrats have claimed for
decades that the GOP does that because low voter turnouts generally help
Republican candidates.

"If no signs of intimidation techniques have emerged yet, launch a pre-emptive
strike," rule No. 2 says.

Then, the manual says the operatives should issue a press release "reviewing
Republican tactics used in your area or state." They should also quote
"party/minority/civil rights leadership as denouncing tactics that discourage
people from voting."

Indeed, a press release from the Colorado Democrats on Wednesday looked straight
out of the playbook.

After Secretary of State Donetta Davidson and Gov. Bill Owens, both Republicans,
said anyone caught defrauding the voter registration process would be
prosecuted, the Democrats shot out a statement decrying Davidson's and Owens'
remarks as "voter intimidation."

The release also quoted two minority elected officials: Rick Garcia and Michael
Hancock, both city councilmen. But Casey said she first saw the playbook on
Thursday morning, the day after they had issued the press release.

"The first time I saw it was today after reporters called. We sort of looked at
each other and said 'Gee, we did all the right things,' " she said.

But Casey also defended what she had said in the Wednesday statement, saying
Owens and Davidson sent a message to voters that said, "be careful . . . If you
are found ineligible you won't vote."

The Democrats message is much different, Casey said.

"We believe in democracy," she said. "We believe every person who is eligible
should be able to vote. We think we should send the message: be confident. If
you're eligible, go vote."

Late Thursday, Owens dismissed Casey's charge, telling a group of President Bush
backers at a gathering at the Denver Diner that Casey was simply playing by the
Democratic playbook. He said he's highly concerned about news reports about
people registering to vote dozens of times.

"We're not trying to intimidate anybody," Owens said. "I'm encouraging
Coloradoans to go to the polls. I want it to be a fair and honest vote, not
skewed by somebody who registered 35 times."

What the document says

A page from the Democrats' "Colorado Election Day Manual: A detailed guide to
voting in Colorado" appeared on the Drudge Report.

. Chapter 2 says: "If no signs of intimidation techniques have emerged yet,
launch a pre-emptive strike."

. Operatives are directed to issue a news release "reviewing Republican tactics
used in your area or state."

. They should also quote "party/minority/ civil rights leadership as denouncing
tactics that discourage people from voting."
--
Carl A. in FL
Enjoy photo-journals of my travels at
http://sky.prohosting.com/chainfl/index.htm
William Boyd
2004-10-16 18:41:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Hogland
Post by Guess Who?
I think Bush did lots better on the last "debate". I liked his
remark on "Strong Women",.....
I grew weary of Kerry blaming everything except ingrown toenails,
on
Post by Guess Who?
"the current administation". I couldn't even watch it all....
Kerry makes me sick at times, but I'm still going to vote for him.
We need a change of leadership. Too bad it's Kerry.
I sure hope the Republicans offer a better choice in 2008.........
Don
I think Kerry sucked. He was stiff and nervous. He had many openings of
which he could have attacked Bush on his words but didn't. I guess it
wasn't that Kerry sucked but it was that Bush was so much better than
before. I'm dismayed by all this as I feel that Kerry would be so much
better for our economy and our country.
With that said, Kerry had to be excellent throughout the debates far
exceeding Bush. He wasn't. I think Bush has it in the bag now. I'm
voting for Kerry and there is not question about that. I have no doubt
that my state will pick Kerry but I now have no doubt that Bush will win
overall. With the so called *liberal news* of only a political angle
coming out the week of the election on the public frequencies will be
the right-wing Sinclair Broadcasting company. Now, if I were dishonest,
I would say the media is a *conservative media*, but since I'm more
educated than that, I'll say that the media sure has had a legitimate
hand in the outcome to those that have a half a brain, however a leaning
view point to the right.. It's only those that haven't a value that spew
the media is left leaning and I'm not going to be a part of the spewing
even on the left other than saying, you are *so* insecure and you are
lying through your preverbal teeth.
In my mind, it's the uneducated or the uninformed that are to the right.
They don't understand that a country relies on the middle class to
*sell* their goods. Promoting the middle class dos not involve much
though and does not involve Bush.
We are all gonna feel the pain soon.. I remember the saying that we
don't feel it long but if we get kicked in the balls, we feel as long as
the pain remains. I've been kicked in the balls by Bush and admin and I
won't forget it anytime soon. I've lost my job and my goals are shot for
the next several years at least. I have NEVER had to collect
unemployment insurance Not ever. I'm still not in that role of the
unemployed. I sure don't count on Bush to make it to the point where I
won't have to rely on insurance.. Even with that, I'm a hard worker and
may wind up on my feet soon.
To me those conservative assholes like LZ are just that, assholes.
Occasionally fun to read but far from the reality of life to realize
they are disillusioned; they are the ignorant and the mis-informed..
These people will eventually pay for their un-informed and careless
demeanor but it will be after all us pay. It takes the middle class to
pay their bills and we will understand soon enough. I feel sorry for
those since they just don't seem to have clue or the wherewithal to
understand common logic
So, with that said, you Republicans win. You win with lies. You win with
callousness and conjecture.. You win with every means possible, honest
or not, by design. You win because you compromise yourselves by default.
I'll still respect you but I'll never respect you for voting for Bush
and that's my *honest* opinion. I think all you Bush liker's are nuts
just like you probably think I'm nuts. With that said, I'm just as
resolved to the facts as you. It's just that my facts are right and
yours are far-fetched and wrong. I will not let that get in the way of
friendship even when the others hold totally contrary views. How many of
you can *honestly* write that?
Ben
It is an unfortunate thing that human nature is what it is. That is,
when things are not going as good as we expect them to, we blame the
current administration for all the ills of the current time. This,
although is, what I think to be normal reaction by most, is incorrect.
The U. S. just like most large countries do not answer to the helm of
any one four year term president. Some times it takes several years to
bring about change in the course of a country this large. As far as the
war goes, we began going to war just after the first gulf war, when
we drove Saddam out of Kuwait. Corrective action was supposed to have
been directed by the UN, but lingered and lingered, with corruption with
in their ranks , later finding out. Regardless of who would have been in
the white house we would have went to war anyway. All of the democrats
as well as republicans said so. OH!, Of course there has been a lot of
Monday morning quarterbacking by many politicians. War has not been an
exacting science since time began, and it never will be. Unanticipated
events will occur regardless of how plans are set forth. At the
beginning of the primaries, I thought John Edwards would make a
formidable contender as president, but never thought John Kerry would
make the top slot, bad choice. Had Edwards been selected as the nominee,
he could have chose any one of the more talented democrats and been
elected by
a land slide. This is due to the course the Clinton administration
had set the country on. By his action of not retaliating against
terrorists when the strikes occurred led them in to believing they could
continue to strike with out impunity.
Don and Ben are not the only ones that think that the answer lays in a
change, but this IMA could lead to grave consequences.

BILL P.
--
*KERRY LIED WHILE GOOD MEN DIED*
Ben Hogland
2004-10-17 00:19:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Boyd
Don and Ben are not the only ones that think that the answer lays in a
change, but this IMA could lead to grave consequences.
What I see in your particular reply is the same thing the Bush
administration has going for them. They, and you, can't point to
anything in particular especially Bush's record and claim any factual
promise for the current leadership. All they, and you, can do is rely on
conjecture and scare tactics.

"Grave consequences" is what we already realized under the Bush
administration. As Bush once said but couldn't really spit it out right:
fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Too bad others
don't follow Bush's line of thinking on that.

Ben
Lone Haranguer
2004-10-17 00:05:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Hogland
I think Kerry sucked.
He always has.

He was stiff and nervous.

He's a phony.

He had many openings of
Post by Ben Hogland
which he could have attacked Bush on his words but didn't.
Bush could have nailed Kerry on several blatant lies but couldn't due to
time constraints.

I guess it
Post by Ben Hogland
wasn't that Kerry sucked but it was that Bush was so much better than
before.
Snicker.

I'm dismayed by all this as I feel that Kerry would be so much
Post by Ben Hogland
better for our economy and our country.
How? Creating jobs? Exactly how does one do that or did he plan on
resucitating the WPA?
Post by Ben Hogland
With that said, Kerry had to be excellent throughout the debates far
exceeding Bush. He wasn't.
Pretty hard to be on both sides of an issue in the same evening. Even
Democrats might have noticed.

I think Bush has it in the bag now.

Let's hope. I've tied a brick to the cork puller so it doesn't get
misplaced.

I'm
Post by Ben Hogland
voting for Kerry and there is not question about that. I have no doubt
that my state will pick Kerry but I now have no doubt that Bush will win
overall. With the so called *liberal news* of only a political angle
coming out the week of the election on the public frequencies will be
the right-wing Sinclair Broadcasting company.
Don't the Vietnam POWs have a right to air their grievances against
Kerry? They are the ones who suffered for his duplicity. Who has more
right than they to condemn it?

Now, if I were dishonest,
Post by Ben Hogland
I would say the media is a *conservative media*, but since I'm more
educated than that, I'll say that the media sure has had a legitimate
hand in the outcome to those that have a half a brain, however a leaning
view point to the right.. It's only those that haven't a value that spew
the media is left leaning and I'm not going to be a part of the spewing
even on the left other than saying, you are *so* insecure and you are
lying through your preverbal teeth.
Cal Thomas pointed out this afternoon how the NY Times and the
Philadephia Inquirer print nothing but pro-Kerry propaganda pieces.
Surely you haven't forgotten Dan Rather already?
Post by Ben Hogland
In my mind, it's the uneducated or the uninformed that are to the right.
So what education are we lacking and what issues are we uninformed on?
Post by Ben Hogland
They don't understand that a country relies on the middle class to
*sell* their goods. Promoting the middle class dos not involve much
though and does not involve Bush.
Unemployment nationwide is less than it was when Clinton was re-elected
in '96. In MN it is running around 5.4%.
Post by Ben Hogland
We are all gonna feel the pain soon.. I remember the saying that we
don't feel it long but if we get kicked in the balls, we feel as long as
the pain remains. I've been kicked in the balls by Bush and admin and I
won't forget it anytime soon. I've lost my job and my goals are shot for
the next several years at least.
Can you track your woes to the White House? I bet you were overjoyed
when Clinton froze our COLAs in his first budget.

I have NEVER had to collect
Post by Ben Hogland
unemployment insurance Not ever. I'm still not in that role of the
unemployed.
Know anything about EMC testing? #2 son says the field is hurting for
qualified workers. He just spent a week at the NBAA show in Las Vegas.

I sure don't count on Bush to make it to the point where I
Post by Ben Hogland
won't have to rely on insurance.. Even with that, I'm a hard worker and
may wind up on my feet soon.
Good luck. Hope your sour attitude doesn't ruin your job interviews.
Post by Ben Hogland
To me those conservative assholes like LZ are just that, assholes.
Thank you for singling me out. I must be especially effective at
countering liberal lies.
Post by Ben Hogland
Occasionally fun to read but far from the reality of life to realize
they are disillusioned; they are the ignorant and the mis-informed..
So nail them. IF you can.
Post by Ben Hogland
These people will eventually pay for their un-informed and careless
demeanor but it will be after all us pay. It takes the middle class to
pay their bills and we will understand soon enough. I feel sorry for
those since they just don't seem to have clue or the wherewithal to
understand common logic.
Got any free samples?
Post by Ben Hogland
So, with that said, you Republicans win. You win with lies. You win with
callousness and conjecture.. You win with every means possible, honest
or not, by design. You win because you compromise yourselves by default.
Yawn....
Post by Ben Hogland
I'll still respect you but I'll never respect you for voting for Bush
and that's my *honest* opinion. I think all you Bush liker's are nuts
just like you probably think I'm nuts. With that said, I'm just as
resolved to the facts as you. It's just that my facts are right and
yours are far-fetched and wrong.
If you had gotten a promotion instead of a pink slip, would you be
extolling the virtues of Bush and how smart he is?

I will not let that get in the way of
Post by Ben Hogland
friendship even when the others hold totally contrary views. How many of
you can *honestly* write that?
Ben
We'd have to give you a polygraph first.
LZ
R.R.
2004-10-14 23:15:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Badlander
We all know the Elector does not reflect the will of the people. It
reflects the will of the states not the people. If it did reflect the
will of the people then Gore would be president.
If you don't believe in the Constitution, why do you live in the U.S.?
Willcox
2004-10-14 19:32:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Porter
Post by Ron(Fla)
I just checked MSNBC's poll and Kerry is ahead again.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6243054/
Ron
And the polls at this link tell a different story.
http://www.electoral-vote.com/
Depends on which polls you want to put your faith in.
Kerry is WAY behind in this army poll :o/

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-383722.php
Ron(Fla)
2004-10-14 20:04:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Willcox
Post by Jon Porter
Post by Ron(Fla)
I just checked MSNBC's poll and Kerry is ahead again.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6243054/
Ron
And the polls at this link tell a different story.
http://www.electoral-vote.com/
Depends on which polls you want to put your faith in.
Kerry is WAY behind in this army poll :o/
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-383722.php
The ArmyTimes poll is biased big time! It only included people with email
address's on file, mostly older career oriented and higher rank
individuals.
Ron
Alan Balmer
2004-10-14 20:40:34 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 16:04:35 -0400, "Ron\(Fla\)"
Post by Ron(Fla)
Post by Willcox
Post by Jon Porter
Post by Ron(Fla)
I just checked MSNBC's poll and Kerry is ahead again.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6243054/
Ron
And the polls at this link tell a different story.
http://www.electoral-vote.com/
Depends on which polls you want to put your faith in.
Kerry is WAY behind in this army poll :o/
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-383722.php
The ArmyTimes poll is biased big time! It only included people with email
address's on file, mostly older career oriented and higher rank
individuals.
Of course it is. They said so, didn't they? It included only their
subscribers and only those who felt like responding to the poll. Don't
get excited, nobody is trying to fool you. They said:

"Though the results of the Military Times 2004 Election Survey are not
representative of the opinions of the military as a whole, they are a
disappointment to Democrats ... "

The latter phrase is obviously accurate, based on your reaction.
--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
***@att.net
Ron(Fla)
2004-10-14 22:42:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Balmer
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 16:04:35 -0400, "Ron\(Fla\)"
Post by Ron(Fla)
Post by Willcox
Post by Jon Porter
Post by Ron(Fla)
I just checked MSNBC's poll and Kerry is ahead again.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6243054/
Ron
And the polls at this link tell a different story.
http://www.electoral-vote.com/
Depends on which polls you want to put your faith in.
Kerry is WAY behind in this army poll :o/
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-383722.php
The ArmyTimes poll is biased big time! It only included people with email
address's on file, mostly older career oriented and higher rank
individuals.
Of course it is. They said so, didn't they? It included only their
subscribers and only those who felt like responding to the poll. Don't
"Though the results of the Military Times 2004 Election Survey are not
representative of the opinions of the military as a whole, they are a
disappointment to Democrats ... "
The latter phrase is obviously accurate, based on your reaction.
--
Al Balmer
I wasn't disappointed, I don't really give a damn one way or another. I just
read what you read and pointed it out.
Ron
Bob Hatch
2004-10-15 06:00:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron(Fla)
I wasn't disappointed, I don't really give a damn one way or another.
I just read what you read and pointed it out.
Ron
You obviously do give a damn one way. You keep pointing out polls that show
Kerry in the lead.
--
"Your money does not cause my poverty. Refusal to believe
this is at the bottom of most bad economic thinking." --P. J. O'Rourke
http://www.bobhatch.com
Ron(Fla)
2004-10-15 13:22:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Hatch
Post by Ron(Fla)
I wasn't disappointed, I don't really give a damn one way or another.
I just read what you read and pointed it out.
Ron
You obviously do give a damn one way. You keep pointing out polls that show
Kerry in the lead.
--
"Your money does not cause my poverty. Refusal to believe
this is at the bottom of most bad economic thinking." --P. J. O'Rourke
http://www.bobhatch.com
Bob,
I was refering to the ArmyTimes response from Al. Yes I do do give a damn.
I am going to vote for Kerry. And the only poll I posted about is the MSNBC
"Rate the debate", because it is a random poll of people who read news at
that site, whether they are R or D, not a poll by either party. I would
have made the post even if it showed Bush was ahead. I respect the right of
each individual here to vote for who they want too, that;s why I don't
attack Repub's and don't respond to attacks on Dem's.

I hope you and the DW are enjoying your new life on the road. My DW just
made the decision 2 weeks ago that she wants to sell and spend some time on
the road also. We are just starting to make preparations. So far we have
emptied the attic and got rid of some stuff and found a climate controlled
storage for our "must keep" items.
Ron
Carl A.
2004-10-15 14:20:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron(Fla)
I hope you and the DW are enjoying your new life on the road. My DW just
made the decision 2 weeks ago that she wants to sell and spend some time on
the road also. We are just starting to make preparations. So far we have
emptied the attic and got rid of some stuff and found a climate controlled
storage for our "must keep" items.
Ron
When you live in paradise, why go somewhere else? <g>

Keep in mind that after a while she'll probably want to come back to Florida.
You may not want to sell your house - with real estate prices climbing and the
baby boomers retiring to Florida, you may find that you can't buy comparable
housing in a few years at anywhere near today's prices. And it stands to reason
that any proceeds from the sale of your home cannot be invested at a rate of
return equal or better to the projected rate of real estate appreciation in
southern Florida.
--
Carl A. in FL
Enjoy photo-journals of my travels at
http://sky.prohosting.com/chainfl/index.htm
Dot
2004-10-16 21:46:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl A.
Keep in mind that after a while she'll probably want to come back to
Florida. You may not want to sell your house - with real estate
prices climbing and the baby boomers retiring to Florida, you may
find that you can't buy comparable housing in a few years at anywhere
near today's prices. And it stands to reason that any proceeds from
the sale of your home cannot be invested at a rate of return equal or
better to the projected rate of real estate appreciation in southern
Florida.
Carl,
Excellent advice for Ron who said he and wife planned on selling their
home in FL and going full time. It's not just southern FL where real
estate is appreciating rapidly. This N. Central FL area is in the top 10
of growth areas in the state. Do you remember the woods across the
street from our little run down "cottage"? The equivalent of mansions in
comparison to our place are being built there and in other similar
wooded areas of this end of the county. The other side of the county
where Hunter stays has an unprecedented building boom. Too much of it on
sub-divided horse farms.

I believe in owning a piece of the land despite the "gov. rent" as some
say. I would not be comfortable living in a depreciable house on wheels.
In a past life, I often went to my acreage just to sit and be away from
the "situation" in that life. As Dorothy in Kansas said: "There's no
place like home." Home means to me a solid place on my own land in
Florida.
--
Dot
http://home.earthlink.net/~flocala/
DSteiner51
2004-10-17 01:05:18 UTC
Permalink
<< Carl,
Excellent advice for Ron who said he and wife planned on selling their
home in FL and going full time. It's not just southern FL where real
estate is appreciating rapidly. This N. Central FL area is in the top 10
of growth areas in the state. Do you remember the woods across the
street from our little run down "cottage"? The equivalent of mansions in
comparison to our place are being built there and in other similar
wooded areas of this end of the county. The other side of the county
where Hunter stays has an unprecedented building boom. Too much of it on
sub-divided horse farms.

I believe in owning a piece of the land despite the "gov. rent" as some
say. I would not be comfortable living in a depreciable house on wheels.
In a past life, I often went to my acreage just to sit and be away from
the "situation" in that life. As Dorothy in Kansas said: "There's no
place like home." Home means to me a solid place on my own land in
Florida.
--
Dot >>

Are you saying that the economy isn't doing very bad in your area? I keep
hearing how bad the economy here in Ohio is too but just a few years ago I
lived in the country in a 1000sq ft. 3 bedroom ranch with one bath. Now I look
around me and I see 3000, & 4000 sq ft houses or larger. I can now walk to
Walmart, Elder Beerman, JCPennys, and Lowes and bunch of othersI have no idea
what other stores are being built but tonite when my BIL took me to the local
Ryans for dinner I saw 4 more new stores in various stages with in a mile of my
house.
DSteiner
HHamp5246
2004-10-17 01:25:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by DSteiner51
Are you saying that the economy isn't doing very bad in your area?
Sadly, Ocala is booming. The developers have ruined south Florida and are now
headed this way.

Hunter
http://members.aol.com/ILuvBrady/summer2004.htm

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting
"...holy shit...what a ride!"
Dot
2004-10-17 02:47:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by HHamp5246
Sadly, Ocala is booming. The developers have ruined south Florida
and are now headed this way.
Change "are now headed this way" to "are here." First major impact was
DisneyWorld. "Build it and they will come" -- the "Sun City" developers,
tourists, and visitors such as Hunter. (Spend more locally, Hunter! <g>)
A second Wal-Mart just opened on Route 200 out by the On Top of the
World retirement areas west of Ocala. As the population increases and/or
gets gray, a very large part comes here.

South of Ocala, on the Marion and Lake County lines, is The Villages,
which was once only a failed development with a pink tiled model home in
the middle of pastures and orange groves. Then came Gary Morse, The
Villages developer and the 18th top fund raiser who raised $500,000 for
Bush-Cheney re-election campaign. (Statewide or nationally? See
www.starbanner.com)

What this influx has done to us property owners is raise our taxes by
newcomers paying higher prices for homes -- homes that are not just the
"McMansions." As this happens, the valuations of all property go up
along with property taxes and impact fees. The increased tax base does
not cover the increase in infrastructure costs. More hospitals and
schools are built and are insufficient to handle the growth. Catch 22?
The ever widening gyre?

There's another local sales tax bill on the ballot to promote the area
for tourists. =sigh= I haven't read this bill yet but will soon.

So, Ron, who planned to sell his Florida property and go fulltiming,
must have his ears ringing now! <g>
--
Dot
http://home.earthlink.net/~flocaladot/yellow_rose.htm
Ron(Fla)
2004-10-18 23:41:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dot
Post by HHamp5246
Sadly, Ocala is booming. The developers have ruined south Florida
and are now headed this way.
So, Ron, who planned to sell his Florida property and go fulltiming,
must have his ears ringing now! <g>
--
Dot
http://home.earthlink.net/~flocaladot/yellow_rose.htm
Gee, I thought it was tininitus.
Ron

Dot
2004-10-17 20:06:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl A.
And it stands to reason that any proceeds from
the sale of your home cannot be invested at a rate of return equal or
better to the projected rate of real estate appreciation in southern
Florida.
...It's not just southern FL where real
estate is appreciating rapidly. This N. Central FL area is in the top
10 of growth areas in the state.
See below that Miami-Hialeah and my area have the same high 26 percent
gains rate in real estate prices. Not far behind West Palm's 27percent.
Though, I think, the median home price in this area is maybe half that
of Sarasota's.

"Just days after Charley hit, the National Association of Realtors
announced that Florida markets led the South in price gains. The
strongest market was Sarasota where the median home price was $264,800,
nearly 30 percent higher than a year earlier. Sarasota was followed by
West Palm Beach where prices were up 27 percent and Ocala and
Miami-Hialeah where prices were nearly 26 percent higher."
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/business/national/9944027.htm?1c

Dot
Lone Haranguer
2004-10-14 21:07:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron(Fla)
Post by Willcox
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-383722.php
The ArmyTimes poll is biased big time! It only included people with email
address's on file, mostly older career oriented and higher rank
individuals.
Ron
Those are the more mature, more educated and more experienced professionals.

So their judgment is seasoned and based on experience under other
presidents.

I would think their opinion is the more valued for that reason.
LZ
Carmen
2004-10-14 21:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Hello,
Post by Lone Haranguer
Post by Ron(Fla)
Post by Willcox
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-383722.php
The ArmyTimes poll is biased big time! It only included people
with email address's on file, mostly older career oriented and
higher rank
individuals.
Ron
Those are the more mature, more educated and more experienced
professionals.
So their judgment is seasoned and based on experience under other
presidents.
I would think their opinion is the more valued for that reason.
LZ
Even if their opinion ran counter to your own? <G>

Take care,
Carmen
Lone Haranguer
2004-10-14 22:47:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmen
Even if their opinion ran counter to your own? <G>
That would make me a Kerry supporter which is outside the realm of
possibility. If THEY were Kerry supporters I would just shake my head
and deplore how far the military has fallen since I left.
LZ
Carmen
2004-10-14 23:09:19 UTC
Permalink
Hello Linus,
Post by Lone Haranguer
Post by Carmen
Even if their opinion ran counter to your own? <G>
That would make me a Kerry supporter which is outside the realm of
possibility. If THEY were Kerry supporters I would just shake my
head and deplore how far the military has fallen since I left.
There is a third possible reaction. You could also recognize that
there are people in the military who do not wish to see more of their
compatriots die or end up with roboparts instead of flesh. Not for
Iraq. People who have been over there, people who have 20+ years in
the military under their belt. People like the 21+ year MSG I'm
married to. The one who keeps his left hand in his dresser drawer at
night, due in large part to OIF. That's what all the med paperwork
says, that's not just our take on the matter. The very angry Lt. Col.
who had to perform the surgery made sure the causes were well
documented.
I'm not crazy about Kerry, but Bush has cost this family far too much
already. There are real people behind those numbers.

Take care,
Carmen
Lone Haranguer
2004-10-15 00:17:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmen
There is a third possible reaction. You could also recognize that
there are people in the military who do not wish to see more of their
compatriots die or end up with roboparts instead of flesh.
I think this has always been the case. It certainly applied in Korea
when I was there in '52 and '53.

Not for
Post by Carmen
Iraq. People who have been over there, people who have 20+ years in
the military under their belt. People like the 21+ year MSG I'm
married to. The one who keeps his left hand in his dresser drawer at
night, due in large part to OIF. That's what all the med paperwork
says, that's not just our take on the matter. The very angry Lt. Col.
who had to perform the surgery made sure the causes were well
documented.
Was he drafted? Didn't he ever expect to see combat duty? What did he
think the military was for? Garrison duty and an early retirement?
Post by Carmen
I'm not crazy about Kerry, but Bush has cost this family far too much
already. There are real people behind those numbers.
It's a Sunday School picnic compared to Korea, lady. 33,000 KIA
another 8,000 MIA. In 3 years.

Stop whining and count your blessings he's alive.
LZ
Carmen
2004-10-15 01:27:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lone Haranguer
Stop whining and count your blessings he's alive.
Not whining at all. Nor is my husband. Simply pointing out that if
military members vote for Kerry isn't indicative of the military
Post by Lone Haranguer
That would make me a Kerry supporter which is outside the realm of
possibility. If THEY were Kerry supporters I would just shake my
head and deplore how far the military has fallen since I left.
Neither my husband or myself blame military life for what happened.
He's in a combat arms MOS, and enlisted expecting combat might happen.
He also expected the commander-in-chief and the rest of the civilian
leadership to employ the military in a judicious fashion.

After my husband got all his troops through the combat upright as
their first sergeant he went to act as the operations sergeant major
for one of the 5 as-yet-unformed Life Support Areas and get it stood
up. He and the Firebase Glory commander had the task of bringing up
an LSA capable of supporting the needs of 5200 personnel. As part of
that there were a large number of Iraqi civilans hired for various
jobs. My husband had a lot of interaction with these people and
formed friendships. One day he asked an Iraqi Christian (office job
on the firebase, well educated, bilingual) if they thought things were
better than under Saddam. The answer was "Not better, not worse, just
different. I know what you want me to say. I'm sorry." That's not
worth the cost.

It isn't so much that we voted for Kerry. We voted "Anyone but Bush",
and we had 1,088 reasons for doing it.

Carmen
Lone Haranguer
2004-10-15 02:40:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmen
Post by Lone Haranguer
Stop whining and count your blessings he's alive.
Not whining at all. Nor is my husband. Simply pointing out that if
military members vote for Kerry isn't indicative of the military
Call it what you want. It's rather petty and childish to hold a grudge
against a CIC because he expected a 20 year man to do the job he's paid
to do.
Post by Carmen
Post by Lone Haranguer
That would make me a Kerry supporter which is outside the realm of
possibility. If THEY were Kerry supporters I would just shake my
head and deplore how far the military has fallen since I left.
Neither my husband or myself blame military life for what happened.
He's in a combat arms MOS, and enlisted expecting combat might happen.
He also expected the commander-in-chief and the rest of the civilian
leadership to employ the military in a judicious fashion.
How would he know what that is? Does he get the same briefings the CIC
does? The CIC went to war without consulting you and your husband?
Grow up.
Post by Carmen
It isn't so much that we voted for Kerry. We voted "Anyone but Bush",
and we had 1,088 reasons for doing it.
Then the country has around 500,000 reasons to vote AGAINST Democraps
because that is how many FDR, HST and LBJ got killed with THEIR policies.

You folks wanted the gravy and can't take the lumps. You make me ill.
LZ
Guess Who?
2004-10-15 03:03:27 UTC
Permalink
Linus
I think you're being far too callus with Carmen. All she's doing is
voting differently than you think is "the right way".... Don't you want
freedom?
You are way out of line..........
Don
Lone Haranguer
2004-10-15 14:37:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guess Who?
Linus
I think you're being far too callus with Carmen. All she's doing is
voting differently than you think is "the right way".... Don't you want
freedom?
You are way out of line..........
Don
I always tell it like it is. Voting for Kerry is her prerogative,
however their reasons sound bogus for a career military person.

"judicious" use of the military is not your call when you are a grunt in
an all-volunteer military. With Kerry as president, the will to win in
Iraq will disappear, morale will sag and we'll have a surly bunch of
malcontents who frag their officers. In the end we would probably lose
more people than an aggressive campaign would.

Here is the type of person we need, whether he votes for Kerry or Bush.
LZ

Oct 15, 1:45 AM EDT

Civilian killed in Iraq is former mayor of North Branch

By AMY FORLITI
Associated Press Writer

MINNEAPOLIS (AP) -- Whether coaching high school football, training with
the Marines, or running the city of North Branch as its mayor, John
Pinsonneault was a true public servant and leader.

His sense of duty ran so deep that the 39-year-old went to Iraq to work
for the private U.S. security firm DynCorp. He was one of three
employees killed Thursday in suicide bombings in Baghdad's Green Zone. A
fourth employee is presumed dead.

"One thing he had said was 'If I can make a difference and maybe keep
the younger boys out of there, I need to do that,'" said his wife,
Lorie. "The cause was just very important to him.

"His love for his country is just something that you don't see every day."

Pinsonneault, of North Branch, had served about eight years in the
Marines and eight years in the Reserves, his wife said. He went to Iraq
in May as a civilian.

The couple kept in touch through e-mail. Lorie Pinsonneault said that
even though her husband was in danger, he would keep tabs on things back
home, making sure everything was running smoothly. He even continued to
do some of his motivational speaking work through e-mail, she said.

"John was very dynamic. He was very much a leader, very ambitious and
motivational," she said.

That ambition made her fall for John Pinsonneault when the two met while
working together years ago. They have been married for about nine years.

"Just the fact that John is such a dynamic personality, such a leader,
such a go-getter. I was impressed with that," she said. The couple has
four adult children: John Pinsonneault's daughter is 19, and Lorie
Pinsonneault's three children are ages 18 through 22.

Lorie Pinsonneault learned about the bombing on the morning news, but
said she wasn't terribly worried - until North Branch police arrived at
her door Thursday afternoon. She said she had no details about how her
husband died.

But news of John Pinsonneault's death spread quickly through North
Branch, a city of about 8,000 residents 45 miles north of Minneapolis.
Pinsonneault was elected mayor in 2000 and resigned before his two-year
term ended to take a job out of the area, said former North Branch City
Administrator John Moosey.

"He was just a heck of a good guy, a friend to everybody," said Moosey,
who is now the administrator for Chisago County. "He was a very good
leader, very community minded ... he came in during a time when there
was quite a bit of dissatisfaction with the rapid growth of the city. ...

"He was a force that brought people together," Moosey said.

Pinsonneault also had the military coursing through him, Moosey said.

"He flew the P.O.W. flag and U.S. Marine Corps flag out on his garage.
In fact, I think the flag was bigger than his garage!" Moosey joked.

Pinsonneault, a Vikings fan who liked football, hockey, hunting and
riding his Harley Davidson, also used his motivational skills to coach
youth sports.

He even coached Lorie Pinsonneault's children in softball, football and
hockey.

"He was a tough coach, but ... they think he was the best one they ever
had," Lorie Pinsonneault said.
Carmen
2004-10-15 10:59:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lone Haranguer
Post by Carmen
Post by Lone Haranguer
Stop whining and count your blessings he's alive.
Not whining at all. Nor is my husband. Simply pointing out that if
military members vote for Kerry isn't indicative of the military
Call it what you want. It's rather petty and childish to hold a grudge
against a CIC because he expected a 20 year man to do the job he's paid
to do.
Post by Carmen
Post by Lone Haranguer
That would make me a Kerry supporter which is outside the realm of
possibility. If THEY were Kerry supporters I would just shake my
head and deplore how far the military has fallen since I left.
Neither my husband or myself blame military life for what
happened.
He's in a combat arms MOS, and enlisted expecting combat might happen.
He also expected the commander-in-chief and the rest of the civilian
leadership to employ the military in a judicious fashion.
How would he know what that is? Does he get the same briefings the CIC
does? The CIC went to war without consulting you and your husband?
Grow up.
Post by Carmen
It isn't so much that we voted for Kerry. We voted "Anyone but Bush",
and we had 1,088 reasons for doing it.
Then the country has around 500,000 reasons to vote AGAINST
Democraps
because that is how many FDR, HST and LBJ got killed with THEIR policies.
You folks wanted the gravy and can't take the lumps. You make me ill.
Your words speak volumes Linus. They reveal far more than you
intended them to.

Reasoned discourse isn't really possible when discussing beliefs
primarily because they are just that, beliefs.
The far right and the far left adherents on the political spectrum
have insulated their views from introspection, in much the same way
many insulate their religious faith from critical self-scrutiny.
Logic cannot hold sway in any conversation involving a belief system,
a truth I'm once again reminded of.

Have a nice day,
Carmen
Lone Haranguer
2004-10-15 15:34:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmen
Post by Lone Haranguer
You folks wanted the gravy and can't take the lumps. You make me ill.
Your words speak volumes Linus. They reveal far more than you
intended them to.
How would you know?
Post by Carmen
Reasoned discourse isn't really possible when discussing beliefs
primarily because they are just that, beliefs.
The far right and the far left adherents on the political spectrum
have insulated their views from introspection, in much the same way
many insulate their religious faith from critical self-scrutiny.
Far right and far left are irrelevant. Beliefs are irrelevant. Poorly
informed versus well informed is the watershed. It's very obvious on
this newsgroup which side operates on information and which side
operates solely on emotion.
Post by Carmen
Logic cannot hold sway in any conversation involving a belief system,
a truth I'm once again reminded of.
That is because logic is completely lacking on your side. Emotion prevails.
Post by Carmen
Have a nice day,
Carmen
Our ballots arrived in the mail. We'll be voting for Bush and the
ballots will be postmarked "Republican City, Nebraska". Hopefully a
propitious omen.
LZ
Carmen
2004-10-15 19:28:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lone Haranguer
Post by Carmen
Reasoned discourse isn't really possible when discussing beliefs
primarily because they are just that, beliefs.
The far right and the far left adherents on the political spectrum
have insulated their views from introspection, in much the same way
many insulate their religious faith from critical self-scrutiny.
Far right and far left are irrelevant. Beliefs are irrelevant.
Poorly
informed versus well informed is the watershed. It's very obvious on
this newsgroup which side operates on information and which side
operates solely on emotion.
Post by Carmen
Logic cannot hold sway in any conversation involving a belief
system, a truth I'm once again reminded of.
That is because logic is completely lacking on your side. Emotion prevails.
You don't see the irony in your statement, do you?
Post by Lone Haranguer
Our ballots arrived in the mail. We'll be voting for Bush and the
ballots will be postmarked "Republican City, Nebraska". Hopefully a
propitious omen.
Our ballots arrived last week and were marked for Kerry. The bright
spot is that *all* of us had a right to make our voice heard because
we live in a democracy. One thing that bothers me about all the
ranting going on vis-a-vis politics right now are the sheer number of
people who ignore democratic values and want other people silenced -
in the name of "patriotism" and democracy. Clear heads are few and
far between, and both political parties are guilty of it.
Look around you Linus. On one side there are people shouting at each
other with their fingers in their ears and on the other there are
people sitting in groups nodding like bobbleheads with their perceived
fellow Star-Bellied Sneetches.
This isn't adult behavior, and it's not productive either.

Have a nice day,
Carmen
Lone Haranguer
2004-10-15 21:29:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmen
Our ballots arrived last week and were marked for Kerry. The bright
spot is that *all* of us had a right to make our voice heard because
we live in a democracy.
Because of Bush, the people of Afghanistan experienced that for the
first time. Because of Bush, the people of Iraq are awaiting that day.
Your husband will have helped win that right but apparently he lost
sight of the goal or never knew what it was. Too sad. I take it he
didn't volunteer for Iraq so winning freedom for the Iraqis is not
something he's concerned about. Fortunately there are those that are.
LZ
Carmen
2004-10-15 21:40:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lone Haranguer
Post by Carmen
Our ballots arrived last week and were marked for Kerry. The
bright spot is that *all* of us had a right to make our voice
heard
because we live in a democracy.
Because of Bush, the people of Afghanistan experienced that for the
first time. Because of Bush, the people of Iraq are awaiting that day.
Your husband will have helped win that right but apparently he
lost sight of the goal or never knew what it was. Too sad. I
take it he
didn't volunteer for Iraq so winning freedom for the Iraqis is not
something he's concerned about. Fortunately there are those that are.
You know, you might be a good person in your everyday life Linus. I
certainly hope so, because if your online activity is the way you
always behave the phrase "Too sad" would be fitting. I hope you don't
treat people callously and thoughtlessly in person.
"Haranguer" fits your style unfortunately. "Noisy and pompous
speech". Ears and mind closed and locked, with a world view so narrow
there's no room for light, never mind enlightenment. It's too bad,
but it's your choice.

Take care,
Carmen
Lon VanOstran
2004-10-15 20:44:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmen
Logic cannot hold sway in any conversation involving a belief system,
a truth I'm once again reminded of.
Have a nice day,
Carmen
I understand you believing that. You couldn't be a Liberal and believe
otherwise.
Conservatism, on the other hand, is based upon logic and facts.

Lon
DM_Callier
2004-10-15 21:24:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lon VanOstran
Post by Carmen
Logic cannot hold sway in any conversation involving a belief system,
a truth I'm once again reminded of.
Have a nice day,
Carmen
I understand you believing that. You couldn't be a Liberal and believe
otherwise.
Conservatism, on the other hand, is based upon logic and facts.
Lon
ROTFLMFAO...thanks, I needed that...
Carmen
2004-10-15 21:57:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lon VanOstran
Post by Carmen
Logic cannot hold sway in any conversation involving a belief
system, a truth I'm once again reminded of.
I understand you believing that. You couldn't be a Liberal and
believe otherwise.
Conservatism, on the other hand, is based upon logic and facts.
Humor! I was beginning to think it had all evaporated. Thank you.
:-)

Take care,
Carmen
Madeleine
2004-10-15 03:55:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lone Haranguer
Post by Carmen
There is a third possible reaction. You could also recognize that
there are people in the military who do not wish to see more of their
compatriots die or end up with roboparts instead of flesh.
I think this has always been the case. It certainly applied in Korea
when I was there in '52 and '53.
Not for
Post by Carmen
Iraq. People who have been over there, people who have 20+ years in
the military under their belt. People like the 21+ year MSG I'm
married to. The one who keeps his left hand in his dresser drawer at
night, due in large part to OIF. That's what all the med paperwork
says, that's not just our take on the matter. The very angry Lt. Col.
who had to perform the surgery made sure the causes were well
documented.
Was he drafted? Didn't he ever expect to see combat duty? What did he
think the military was for? Garrison duty and an early retirement?
Post by Carmen
I'm not crazy about Kerry, but Bush has cost this family far too much
already. There are real people behind those numbers.
It's a Sunday School picnic compared to Korea, lady. 33,000 KIA
another 8,000 MIA. In 3 years.
Stop whining and count your blessings he's alive.
LZ
You are truly despicable. I would say typical of the far right, but even
most of them would never have said anything like that.
--
Peace, Love and Serenity,
Madeleine
http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=madewar
Lone Haranguer
2004-10-15 15:02:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madeleine
Post by Lone Haranguer
It's a Sunday School picnic compared to Korea, lady. 33,000 KIA
another 8,000 MIA. In 3 years.
Stop whining and count your blessings he's alive.
LZ
You are truly despicable. I would say typical of the far right, but even
most of them would never have said anything like that.
Truth is despicable?

Only to liberals.
LZ
Will Sill
2004-10-15 12:17:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmen
I'm not crazy about Kerry, but Bush has cost this family far too much
already. There are real people behind those numbers.
I've defended this writer in the past, but this is over the top. As
others have pointed out, military duty in this country is on a
VOLUNTEER basis, and whining about getting hurt in combat marks you as
a whiner.

But I find it significant that once again someone is eternally STUPID
enough to pledge a vote to Kerry - NOT because they think he's the
best choice, but because of an emotional bias against Bush.

Grow up, lady!

Will Sill
"It's obvious to me that this country is rapidly dividing
itself into two camps - the wimps and the warriors: The ones
who want to argue and assess and appease, and the ones who
want to carry this fight to our enemies and kill them before
they kill us. And in case you haven't figured it out,
I proudly belong to the latter." US Sen Zell Miller (D)
Carmen
2004-10-15 12:42:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will Sill
Post by Carmen
I'm not crazy about Kerry, but Bush has cost this family far too much
already. There are real people behind those numbers.
I've defended this writer in the past, but this is over the top. As
others have pointed out, military duty in this country is on a
VOLUNTEER basis, and whining about getting hurt in combat marks you as
a whiner.
But I find it significant that once again someone is eternally
STUPID
enough to pledge a vote to Kerry - NOT because they think he's the
best choice, but because of an emotional bias against Bush.
Grow up, lady!
Once again, religious fervor answers logical analysis. On a
cost-benefit basis Bush has proven to be too costly to the country
IMO. Kerry offers hope of improvement as I see it. Until John
McCain or Colin Powell or Norman Schwartzkopf run for office I don't
see a candidate I can really endorse with any enthusiasm. I'll be
damned if I neglect my duty and privilege to vote though.

Have a nice day,
Carmen
Will Sill
2004-10-15 13:12:44 UTC
Permalink
I see where "Carmen" <***@hotmail.com> wrote these exact words:

:It isn't so much that we voted for Kerry. We voted "Anyone but Bush", and
:we had 1,088 reasons for doing it.

Then, in response to my observation that this was a really dumb
Post by Carmen
Once again, religious fervor answers logical analysis. On a
cost-benefit basis Bush has proven to be too costly to the country
IMO. Kerry offers hope of improvement as I see it.
I give up. It is not possible to debate rationally with a person so
blinded by hatred that they actually claim their POV derives from
"logical analysis" and that anyone not sharing their POV is guilty of
"religious fervor". Egad.

In a time of war, Kerry is a peacenik. In the past he was a turncoat
who deliberately and repeatedly lied through his teeth to demean and
falsely accuse our military. For the last 30 years he has proven to
be an illogical but idelogical left-wing radical. He has made is
absolutely clear that he has NO viable plan for Iraq, for the economy,
or for ANYTHING beyond a never-ending smear campaign to blame every
real or imagine trouble on George Bush. Logic? Surely you jest!

Frankly, my dear, you make me want to puke. Rant on.... make your
POV even clearer.

Will Sill
Carmen
2004-10-15 13:20:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will Sill
:It isn't so much that we voted for Kerry. We voted "Anyone but Bush", and
:we had 1,088 reasons for doing it.
Then, in response to my observation that this was a really dumb
Post by Carmen
Once again, religious fervor answers logical analysis. On a
cost-benefit basis Bush has proven to be too costly to the country
IMO. Kerry offers hope of improvement as I see it.
I give up. It is not possible to debate rationally with a person so
blinded by hatred that they actually claim their POV derives from
"logical analysis" and that anyone not sharing their POV is guilty of
"religious fervor". Egad.
In a time of war, Kerry is a peacenik. In the past he was a
turncoat
who deliberately and repeatedly lied through his teeth to demean and
falsely accuse our military. For the last 30 years he has proven to
be an illogical but idelogical left-wing radical. He has made is
absolutely clear that he has NO viable plan for Iraq, for the
economy,
or for ANYTHING beyond a never-ending smear campaign to blame every
real or imagine trouble on George Bush. Logic? Surely you jest!
Frankly, my dear, you make me want to puke. Rant on.... make your
POV even clearer.
Reasonable readers will make the final determination as to who is
acting in an illogical fashion, and who is ranting.
For the nausea I recommend some relaxation and a bland diet.

Have a nice day,
Carmen
Jan Eric Orme
2004-10-15 18:13:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmen
Reasonable readers will make the final determination as to who is
acting in an illogical fashion, and who is ranting.
For the nausea I recommend some relaxation and a bland diet.
Have a nice day,
Carmen
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
With all due respect Carmen, your condescending air of superiority is also
typical of your candidate. But it does and says nothing of consequence.

Recently you made this comment:
"Kerry offers hope of improvement as I see it."

Pray tell....just what is that improvement?
Many of us have already voted for Bush by absentee ballot. Including me. And
that would be because Kerry's lame pontifications of "hope of improvement" are
like hot air you cannot grasp. He keeps saying how he will improve things and
how he has a "Plan" for everything. But he either does not lay out any real
plan, parrots Bush over and over or his plan(s) does not add up to working or
being viable.

As regards Iraq and/or the REAL and Present Danger of the War On Terror, Kerry
scares the hell out of me. His supposed plan....is just a parroting of Bush
only he says he will do it better!

Yeah Right! I do not believe for one moment he will have the cajones to stand
up to the right people at the right time to get things done. He has lame
resolve with his wishy washy stances. To be blunt...
he needs to shit or get off the pot. He doesn't.

And BTW, too many of the voting public, are living in denial about the war we
are in. We have already been in a REAL WWIII for a good long while. The
conflict in Iraq is the same one that has raged for over a decade. That war
went on during the Daddy Bush White House, two wishy washy Clinton stints and
now with the current Bush. The current Bush just had the balls to put his foot
on Saddam's neck and bring it to an end.

He Kerry) keeps blustering about supposed Bush failures and how he will get
things done. But on the other hand....he was in Congress for 20 years ....where
real legislation happens to get things done....
and he did ZIP! He had 20 friggin years to get something proposed and/or
accomplished. Results=ZIP, Nada Nothing!

His running mate is even worse that way. He scares me even more. Good at
ambulance chasing and wadding bucks into his pocket.

I see one bright light. This stupid campaign is almost over and then we can get
on with the real war on terror. It will be here for a good long while
regardless of who is in the White House.

So Carmen....tell us about all of the wonderful "hope of improvement."

Jan.....who knows it's Kerry's thin air and who is glad he has already voted
and can watch the Baseball playoffs rather than the "Talking Heads."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jan Eric Orme
"Work like you don't need the money, love like you
have never been hurt and dance like nobody is watching!"
William Boyd
2004-10-15 18:51:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmen
Post by Will Sill
:It isn't so much that we voted for Kerry. We voted "Anyone but Bush", and
:we had 1,088 reasons for doing it.
Then, in response to my observation that this was a really dumb
Post by Carmen
Once again, religious fervor answers logical analysis. On a
cost-benefit basis Bush has proven to be too costly to the country
IMO. Kerry offers hope of improvement as I see it.
I give up. It is not possible to debate rationally with a person so
blinded by hatred that they actually claim their POV derives from
"logical analysis" and that anyone not sharing their POV is guilty of
"religious fervor". Egad.
In a time of war, Kerry is a peacenik. In the past he was a
turncoat
who deliberately and repeatedly lied through his teeth to demean and
falsely accuse our military. For the last 30 years he has proven to
be an illogical but idelogical left-wing radical. He has made is
absolutely clear that he has NO viable plan for Iraq, for the
economy,
or for ANYTHING beyond a never-ending smear campaign to blame every
real or imagine trouble on George Bush. Logic? Surely you jest!
Frankly, my dear, you make me want to puke. Rant on.... make your
POV even clearer.
Reasonable readers will make the final determination as to who is
acting in an illogical fashion, and who is ranting.
For the nausea I recommend some relaxation and a bland diet.
Have a nice day,
Carmen
Eye Opener,

Largest US TV chain will air "Stolen Honor"

Over the weekend, Sinclair Broadcasting Group announced plans to air
"Stolen Honor," the documentary featuring POWs speaking out against John
Kerry's anti-Vietnam War activities. The POWs of "Stolen Honor" recently
joined ranks with the Swift Boat Veterans to spread the truth about John
Kerry's record during and after Vietnam.

Sinclair will air the documentary, which was produced by award-winning
journalist Carlton Sherwood, in the two weeks preceding election day.
"Stolen Honor" will be aired on the 62 stations Sinclair operates across
the country. Check out the Stolen Honor website (www.stolenhonor.com) to
view excerpts from the documentary and interviews with the POWs.

Executives at Sinclair offered Senator Kerry an opportunity to respond
to "Stolen Honor" after it aired, but the Kerry campaign declined to
participate.

"Stolen Honor" will air between October 21 and 24 on the Sinclair
affiliates. Check the Sinclair website
(www.sbgi.net/business/television.shtml) to see if they have a station
in your area.

BILL P.
--
*KERRY LIED WHILE GOOD MEN DIED*
Carmen
2004-10-15 19:13:09 UTC
Permalink
Hello,
Post by William Boyd
"Stolen Honor" will air between October 21 and 24 on the Sinclair
affiliates. Check the Sinclair website
(www.sbgi.net/business/television.shtml) to see if they have a
station in your area.
Thank you Bill for the link. It turns out the Fox affiliate in my
area is running the program at 8 pm tonight. I don't normally watch
TV but I'll do so this evening.
That might surprise some, but if a person's POV can't take all
relevant information into account, both pro and con, when examining an
issue they aren't really making a decision on it. They're going on
blind faith alone.

Take care,
Carmen
William Boyd
2004-10-15 19:42:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmen
Hello,
Post by William Boyd
"Stolen Honor" will air between October 21 and 24 on the Sinclair
affiliates. Check the Sinclair website
(www.sbgi.net/business/television.shtml) to see if they have a
station in your area.
Thank you Bill for the link. It turns out the Fox affiliate in my
area is running the program at 8 pm tonight. I don't normally watch
TV but I'll do so this evening.
That might surprise some, but if a person's POV can't take all
relevant information into account, both pro and con, when examining an
issue they aren't really making a decision on it. They're going on
blind faith alone.
Take care,
Carmen
You are correct, but it seems as though the airing of the above article
is bothering the Kerry campaign, check this out and see if you think it
just might violate freedom of speech.

BILL P.

Kerry Spokesman Appears to Threaten TV Network Set to Air 'Stolen Honor'
By Jeff Gannon
Talon News
October 13, 2004

WASHINGTON (Talon News) -- Chad Clanton, a spokesman for the Kerry
campaign appeared on a Fox News program Tuesday and suggested that the
Sinclair Broadcasting Group might regret airing a documentary that
focuses on the Democratic candidate's antiwar activities. He announced
that pro-Kerry activists were organizing to protest the network.

"We've got thousands of people now very mad jackballed up calling these
stations, protesting, threatening boycotts of their sponsors," Clanton said.

As reported Tuesday by Talon News, Sinclair is set to air "Stolen
Honor," a documentary about John Kerry's protests against the Vietnam
War and how his 1971 testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations
Committee impacted American soldiers held as prisoners of war by the
Viet Cong. The film features several survivors of the prison camps who
tell stories of torture and how Kerry's words were used to extract
confessions to war crimes from them.

Clanton issued what appeared to be a threat to the network when he told
host Linda Vester, "I think they're going to regret doing this and they
better hope we don't win."

The spokesman said that he wasn't threatening Sinclair but declined to
explain what he meant. The Kerry campaign did not respond to a Talon
News request for a clarification of Clanton's remarks.

Mark Hyman, Vice President of Corporate Relations for Sinclair later
reacted to Clanton's remarks, saying, "It certainly sounded like a
threat. For a campaign official for a presidential campaign to imply
they might use something such as the independent regulatory process of
the FCC to exact revenge against media organizations that they find to
be enemies or not supportive of their cause is just astounding and its
something that should cause concern for every media org in the country
if this is going to be a precedent for this campaign or any other
campaign should they win."

Democrats have filed formal complaints against Sinclair Broadcasting
with both the Federal Communications Commission and the Federal Election
Commission. Michael J. Copps, a Democratic FCC commissioner, issued a
statement Tuesday critical of Sinclair's plan to preempt the prime-time
schedules of over 60 local stations across the country to air what he
called "an overtly political program" in the days prior to the
presidential election.

Copps stated, "This is an abuse of the public trust. And it is proof
positive of media consolidation run amok when one owner can use the
public airwaves to blanket the country with its political ideology --
whether liberal or conservative. Some will undoubtedly question if this
is appropriate stewardship of the public airwaves."

He pointed out that Sinclair refused to air Nightline's reading of our
war dead in Iraq. Copps also complained that the network "short-shrifts"
local communities and local jobs by distance-casting news and weather
from hundreds of miles away.

Copps warned, "Sinclair, and the FCC, are taking us down a dangerous road."

The Democratic National Committee sent an e-mail to Kerry activists
Tuesday asking them to help to stop "this right-wing attack on John
Kerry." The message said that an overwhelming outcry from the public
"may be the only way to stop Sinclair from forcing these smears onto the
airwaves." The DNC urged supporters to contact Sinclair stations as well
as sign an online petition.

Democratic Sen. Dick Durbin (D-IL), who signed a letter to the FCC along
with 17 other senators asking them to take action to stop airing of the
documentary, appeared on ABC's "Good Morning America" Tuesday to
criticize Sinclair. He said that the network is dedicated to a political
agenda instead of the public interest.

Hyman also appeared on GMA and said, "If this issue wasn't raised today
we wouldn't be talking about these Vietnam POWs, men who suffered
horrific abuse and unspeakable torture for many, many years in
captivity. They more than anyone else have earned the right to speak and
most of them ended 31 years of silence to reply to comments made by John
Kerry."

Hyman continued, "They have a right to be heard and we think this is an
issue that's very newsworthy. I just don't understand why John Kerry is
running away from these men as he's done for 31 years. Why won't he face
these men, some of whom he served with that he has called war criminals
and accused of committing atrocities? I think this is an absolutely
newsworthy event that he ought to take a few moments out of his day and
sit down and talk to these folks and set the record straight."

Durbin responded, admonishing Hyman in the same way Clanton would do
later, saying, "This clearly is not in the public interest and I must
remind Mr. Hyman, like it or not he has the right to use America's
airwaves because the government has licensed him and his company. He
doesn't own the airwaves. And for him to decide to use them for one
political campaign is, frankly, wrong and violates the FEC rule against
corporate contributions to the Bush campaign."

Hyman said that the network has attempted to convince Kerry to appear in
the news program in order to provide balance. The campaign has so far
declined the invitation.

Durbin dismissed the Sinclair's contention, saying, "The reason they
call it news is they said, well, we invited John Kerry to come by so
clearly it's balanced. Everybody knows that's preposterous, it's just
another example of extremism."

But Hyman suggested major news outlets were shirking their
responsibility to report a story that is relevant to the campaign
because of political considerations. Over the weekend he told The
Washington Post the broadcast networks refused to air "Stolen Honor"
unless someone from the Kerry campaign would come on to respond to it.

He said, "What they've effectively done is to give veto power over their
editorial decisions to the Kerry campaign."

Talon News first reported on "Stolen Honor" on September 10 following a
media screening in Washington, DC. Major networks expressed little
interest in the Kerry's controversial antiwar activities 30 years ago,
instead remaining focused on President Bush's military service with the
Texas Air National Guard.
--
*KERRY LIED WHILE GOOD MEN DIED*
Carmen
2004-10-15 19:57:36 UTC
Permalink
Hello,
Post by William Boyd
Post by Carmen
Hello,
Post by William Boyd
"Stolen Honor" will air between October 21 and 24 on the Sinclair
affiliates. Check the Sinclair website
(www.sbgi.net/business/television.shtml) to see if they have a
station in your area.
Thank you Bill for the link. It turns out the Fox affiliate in my
area is running the program at 8 pm tonight. I don't normally watch
TV but I'll do so this evening.
That might surprise some, but if a person's POV can't take all
relevant information into account, both pro and con, when
examining an
issue they aren't really making a decision on it. They're going on
blind faith alone.
You are correct, but it seems as though the airing of the above
article is bothering the Kerry campaign, check this out and see if
you think
it just might violate freedom of speech.
BILL P.
Kerry Spokesman Appears to Threaten TV Network Set to Air 'Stolen Honor'
By Jeff Gannon
Talon News
October 13, 2004
WASHINGTON (Talon News) -- Chad Clanton, a spokesman for the Kerry
campaign appeared on a Fox News program Tuesday and suggested that
the Sinclair Broadcasting Group might regret airing a documentary
that
focuses on the Democratic candidate's antiwar activities. He
announced that pro-Kerry activists were organizing to protest the
network.
Snip

Using threats to attempt to stop the airing at all is an attempt to
violate free speech if the threatened actions are illegal. An
economic boycott is not illegal however. Sinclair has every right to
air the program, and consumers have every right to withdraw their
economic support of Sinclair. Free speech in action. We are
guaranteed the freedom to express ourselves. We are not guaranteed
protection from all potential consequences of our actions however.

Take care,
Carmen
William Boyd
2004-10-15 19:48:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmen
Hello,
Post by William Boyd
"Stolen Honor" will air between October 21 and 24 on the Sinclair
affiliates. Check the Sinclair website
(www.sbgi.net/business/television.shtml) to see if they have a
station in your area.
Thank you Bill for the link. It turns out the Fox affiliate in my
area is running the program at 8 pm tonight. I don't normally watch
TV but I'll do so this evening.
That might surprise some, but if a person's POV can't take all
relevant information into account, both pro and con, when examining an
issue they aren't really making a decision on it. They're going on
blind faith alone.
Take care,
Carmen
With an intent to provide more material for your evaluating your
decisions go look at some of this.
http://kerry-04.org/

BILL P.
--
*KERRY LIED WHILE GOOD MEN DIED*
Carmen
2004-10-15 20:07:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Boyd
Post by Carmen
Hello,
Post by William Boyd
"Stolen Honor" will air between October 21 and 24 on the Sinclair
affiliates. Check the Sinclair website
(www.sbgi.net/business/television.shtml) to see if they have a
station in your area.
Thank you Bill for the link. It turns out the Fox affiliate in my
area is running the program at 8 pm tonight. I don't normally watch
TV but I'll do so this evening.
That might surprise some, but if a person's POV can't take all
relevant information into account, both pro and con, when
examining an
issue they aren't really making a decision on it. They're going on
blind faith alone.
Take care,
Carmen
With an intent to provide more material for your evaluating your
decisions go look at some of this.
http://kerry-04.org/
<laughing> I saw that one! Unfortunately the 'net is rife with
propaganda sites as opposed to factual sites. I found even worse
examples on both sides earlier this year. I forget which candidate it
was aimed at, but one site referred to a candidate's family member as
(paraphrasing from my memory) "likely to commit a crime someday".
They based it on some distant relative who *looked* like the person
having a criminal bent. There are some bizarre assertions out there.

Take care,
Carmen
Lone Haranguer
2004-10-16 00:14:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmen
That might surprise some, but if a person's POV can't take all
relevant information into account, both pro and con, when examining an
issue they aren't really making a decision on it. They're going on
blind faith alone.
You already voted for Kerry. Rather late to find out he's a traitorous
scumbag and fake hero, isn't it?
LZ
DSteiner51
2004-10-15 13:40:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will Sill
Post by Carmen
I'm not crazy about Kerry, but Bush has cost this family far too much
already. There are real people behind those numbers.
I've defended this writer in the past, but this is over the top. As
others have pointed out, military duty in this country is on a
VOLUNTEER basis, and whining about getting hurt in combat marks you as
a whiner.
But I find it significant that once again someone is eternally
STUPID
enough to pledge a vote to Kerry - NOT because they think he's the
best choice, but because of an emotional bias against Bush.
Grow up, lady!
Once again, religious fervor answers logical analysis. On a
cost-benefit basis Bush has proven to be too costly to the country
IMO. Kerry offers hope of improvement as I see it. Until John
McCain or Colin Powell or Norman Schwartzkopf run for office I don't
see a candidate I can really endorse with any enthusiasm. I'll be
damned if I neglect my duty and privilege to vote though.

Have a nice day,
Carmen >>

I don't care much for Bush but Kerry scares me. Here are some reasons why.
1. He is a Democrat.
2. The Democrats want to remove freedom of speech. The other day one of them
made the comment that Sinclair media better hope that they (the democrats)
don't gain power. Are they going to limit anything not approved by them? On
the radio the other day I heard that California is attempting to pass a hate
law limiting one stating his/her opinion. Haven't checked it out but a
liberal news source wouldn't make something like that up would they?
3.Because of all there liberal legislation we haven't built any power plants or
gas refineries for years yet demand has increased and so has cost. Checked gas
prices recently?
4. How can they force businesses to bring jobs back into this country? Take it
away from the owners and "Nationalize" it?
5. Nationalized medicine. I have some health problems and no way do I want the
government telling the docs or I what is what. The insurance industry is bad
enough.
6. The Democrats want gun control. Why so the people can't fight back? Are
they intending to get so bad that they think that might be a possibility and
want to make it impossible?
7. The Democrats have their liberal judges ruling that laws are
unconstitutional to force their morals etc. on the masses. I can't find
anything in the constitution about many of their so called "unconstitutional"
rulings.
8. The Democrats care nothing for the constitution of the United States but try
to impose portions of the Soviet Union constitution on us here. Example,
nowhere in the US constitution does it mention separation of church and state.
Soviet Union constitution does.

The list goes on and on but since I'm a slow typer I'll stop there. It is not
the man, Kerry, that I fear so much, it is the party leadership. They look way
too Marxist, Communist from the '50's and '60's. Many democrats I know think
that the party is the same as has been and not paying attention to what is
really going on.
DSteiner
Carl A.
2004-10-15 14:39:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by DSteiner51
I don't care much for Bush but Kerry scares me. Here are some reasons why.
1. He is a Democrat.
2. The Democrats want to remove freedom of speech. The other day one of them
made the comment that Sinclair media better hope that they (the democrats)
don't gain power. Are they going to limit anything not approved by them? On
the radio the other day I heard that California is attempting to pass a hate
law limiting one stating his/her opinion. Haven't checked it out but a
liberal news source wouldn't make something like that up would they?
3.Because of all there liberal legislation we haven't built any power plants or
gas refineries for years yet demand has increased and so has cost. Checked gas
prices recently?
4. How can they force businesses to bring jobs back into this country? Take it
away from the owners and "Nationalize" it?
5. Nationalized medicine. I have some health problems and no way do I want the
government telling the docs or I what is what. The insurance industry is bad
enough.
6. The Democrats want gun control. Why so the people can't fight back? Are
they intending to get so bad that they think that might be a possibility and
want to make it impossible?
7. The Democrats have their liberal judges ruling that laws are
unconstitutional to force their morals etc. on the masses. I can't find
anything in the constitution about many of their so called "unconstitutional"
rulings.
8. The Democrats care nothing for the constitution of the United States but try
to impose portions of the Soviet Union constitution on us here. Example,
nowhere in the US constitution does it mention separation of church and state.
Soviet Union constitution does.
The list goes on and on but since I'm a slow typer I'll stop there. It is not
the man, Kerry, that I fear so much, it is the party leadership. They look way
too Marxist, Communist from the '50's and '60's. Many democrats I know think
that the party is the same as has been and not paying attention to what is
really going on.
DSteiner
You may find this article from today's Opinion Journal to be especially
relevant:

Change Is Inevitably Not Popular
Why many Americans hesitate to embrace the Bush revolution.

BY DANIEL HENNINGER
Friday, October 15, 2004 12:01 a.m. EDT

If the people of the United States hand him victory in the 2004 election, George
W. Bush could emerge as the Deng Xiaoping of American politics. Mr. Bush would
become the leader who sent his people forward into a world both uncertain and
inevitable.

Deng, who died in 1997, was the former Communist Chinese revolutionary who
recognized in the 1980s that the moment had come for China to break from an
irrelevant status quo, which had determined economic policy for the entire
postwar period. Led by Deng, China changed its economic policies to make them
appropriate to the world as it existed, not as China wished the world would be.
China flourished. And it is not alone.

India the past five years has similarly broken with its longtime statist past.
Brazil is attempting a similar transformation. All three are huge countries in
the process of rapidly creating a smart, globally relevant business class. This
country's biggest problem isn't "Halliburton" but the realization, just sinking
in, that internal U.S. labor costs are being set by a suddenly thriving, truly
global marketplace. This is the real cause of the famous "middle-class squeeze,"
and it's a force more powerful than any one person sitting in the Oval Office.

After three presidential debates, it is clear that George Bush is asking the
American people to make a similar, abrupt break with the comforts of the
political past. Proposals such as Social Security privatization or individually
run health-savings accounts are not being offered as just an intriguing "policy"
alternative. These ideas are an historic necessity to surviving in the world
economy as it exists today.

Intellectually, the case for making the leap is compelling. Emotionally, the way
forward is less obvious. Most Americans have already adjusted to the disturbing
realities of Iraq and of waging--and leading--a war on global terror. But it's
quite a lot to ask them in the same election to step away from 50 or more years
of federally guaranteed social protection. That would have been large without
Iraq and terror.

The Kerry campaign is riding on the belief that the American electorate, at the
margins in places like Ohio, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, isn't ready to make the
break. And they may be right. That to me is the meaning of the relentlessly
close poll results that persist in this election. John Kerry is a fundamentally
weak presidential candidate, but about half the electorate is uncertain whether
it is able to sign up for all the risk and uncertainty implicit in the next Bush
presidency.

The choice in the 2004 election is about much more than merely aligning oneself
with this or that party. Politics alone, and certainly not campaign politics,
rarely alters the social or economic course of this country. More often it is an
event that "changes everything."

Back in the 1920s, Republicans won presidential elections with whopping 60%
majorities. Calvin Coolidge presided over an economy growing at nearly 5%
annually. A nation tied to business success was working. The Depression changed
everything.

With the New Deal, Franklin Roosevelt reset the economic philosophy of the
United States, and the nation validated it by giving him nearly 61% of the
popular vote in 1936. Then World War II changed everything.

Historians may argue whether war demand rather than Roosevelt's economic
policies rescued a depressed U.S. economy. What is undeniable is that from 1930
to nearly 1950, the American electorate experienced massive blows to its sense
of personal and economic security. It is hardly a surprise that in the postwar
years, the system of unprecedentedly broad federal economic presence and
protection, created by Democrats, lived on, no matter the size of Gen.
Eisenhower's large electoral majorities for the GOP.

It would now take a force much stronger than the normal process of American
politics to change the nation's political economics. Despite periodic displays
of strength by both parties (the two-term presidencies of Reagan and Clinton)
our politics has invariably reverted to a steady-state stand-off. Since and
including 1960, the popular vote in presidential elections has split nearly
50-50 in 1968, 1976, 1980 and 2000. It remains so today.

The belief that September 11 changed everything is false. The support
accumulated by Mr. Bush in the immediate aftermath, realized with historic GOP
gains in the 2002 elections, has receded. Self-identified partisanship informs
most issues again, surely stoked by Iraq.

Alas, this doesn't alter the reality that the economic trains of China, India
and Brazil have left the station. John Kerry's comments on Social Security
Wednesday evening ("I will not privatize it") and his federally led health-care
proposal makes clear that he expects the electorate to put off responding to
this irreversible global reality for another four years. George Bush wants the
big decision made in three weeks.

The Ownership Society is the appropriate, 21st century replacement to the New
Deal. It's about making it possible for the economy to turn on a dime, not once
a decade. The bad news is that George Bush didn't bother to bring up the idea
until a few weeks ago, in his convention speech.

Neither Mr. Bush, two anonymous Treasury secretaries nor anyone else in this
administration has spent significant public time the past four years preparing
American voters to make a change that I'm certain most of them know has to come.
All those lunch-bucket Democrats carting DVD recorders out of Wal-Mart know
those prices weren't delivered by the tooth fairy, or by a factory on the other
side of town.

Bill Clinton understood these realities, as shown in his trade policies. But
Bill Clinton never really changed his party; he never prepared the party to
transition out of its New Deal mindset. With John Kerry, the Democratic policy
stone has rolled a long way downhill.

Too bad. Amid war, terror and global economic upheaval, this election is a tough
and too-sudden call for many voters. My guess is that the American electorate
knows full well that the world is changing, and that come November 2, will
decide the moment is now to change with it.

-----------------------

Mr. Henninger is deputy editor of The Wall Street Journal's editorial page. His
column appears Fridays in the Journal and on OpinionJournal.com.
--
Carl A. in FL
Enjoy photo-journals of my travels at
http://sky.prohosting.com/chainfl/index.htm
Carmen
2004-10-15 19:42:18 UTC
Permalink
Hello,
Post by Carmen
Post by Will Sill
But I find it significant that once again someone is eternally
STUPID enough to pledge a vote to Kerry - NOT because they think
he's the
best choice, but because of an emotional bias against Bush.
Grow up, lady!
Once again, religious fervor answers logical analysis. On a
cost-benefit basis Bush has proven to be too costly to the country
IMO. Kerry offers hope of improvement as I see it. Until John
McCain or Colin Powell or Norman Schwartzkopf run for office I don't
see a candidate I can really endorse with any enthusiasm. I'll be
damned if I neglect my duty and privilege to vote though.
I don't care much for Bush but Kerry scares me. Here are some
reasons why.
1. He is a Democrat.
2. The Democrats want to remove freedom of speech. The other day one
of them made the comment that Sinclair media better hope that they
(the
democrats)
don't gain power. Are they going to limit anything not approved by them? On
the radio the other day I heard that California is attempting to pass a hate
law limiting one stating his/her opinion. Haven't checked it out but a
liberal news source wouldn't make something like that up would they?
3.Because of all there liberal legislation we haven't built any power plants or
gas refineries for years yet demand has increased and so has cost.
Checked gas
prices recently?
4. How can they force businesses to bring jobs back into this
country? Take it
away from the owners and "Nationalize" it?
5. Nationalized medicine. I have some health problems and no way do I want the
government telling the docs or I what is what. The insurance
industry is bad
enough.
6. The Democrats want gun control. Why so the people can't fight back? Are
they intending to get so bad that they think that might be a
possibility and
want to make it impossible?
7. The Democrats have their liberal judges ruling that laws are
unconstitutional to force their morals etc. on the masses. I can't find
anything in the constitution about many of their so called
"unconstitutional"
rulings.
8. The Democrats care nothing for the constitution of the United States but try
to impose portions of the Soviet Union constitution on us here.
Example,
nowhere in the US constitution does it mention separation of church and state.
Soviet Union constitution does.
The list goes on and on but since I'm a slow typer I'll stop there.
It is not
the man, Kerry, that I fear so much, it is the party leadership.
They look way
too Marxist, Communist from the '50's and '60's. Many democrats I know think
that the party is the same as has been and not paying attention to what is
really going on.
Please re-read your list. You've used the term "The Democrats" as if
they were a single homogenous entity. Democrats are no more
homogenous than Republicans are. There are differences of opinion
within both parties.

I understand your fear, but see only vague targets for that fear.
Have you looked closely at these areas of concern? The best way to
dispell fear is with knowledge, and the best way to attain knowledge
is to draw from a wide variety of sources. As a political moderate
who doesn't buy into any one party's platform in its entirety I look
around and make my own decisions. Both parties market themselves, and
neither can be trusted not gloss over the bad stuff.

Do your own thinking. If you have kids I'll bet you told them to
"think for themselves". It's still good advice. :-)

Take care,
Carmen
Lon VanOstran
2004-10-16 03:03:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmen
As a political moderate
who doesn't buy into any one party's platform in its entirety I look
around and make my own decisions. Both parties market themselves, and
neither can be trusted not gloss over the bad stuff.
We live in a two party system, like it or not. One party stands for more
government, less freedom, and higher taxes. The other, more or less, stands for
less government, lower taxes, and more freedom. Sure, there are people within
each party who stray from the agenda, but it's still a two party system and
voting for one of those parties will lead you to enslavement LOTS faster than
voting for the other. Every vote against one particular person is a vote in
FAVOR of the agenda of the other party.

Sadly, neither party ensures freedom beyond all doubt.

Lon
Lon VanOstran
2004-10-15 20:44:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmen
Once again, religious fervor answers logical analysis. On a
cost-benefit basis Bush has proven to be too costly to the country
IMO. Kerry offers hope of improvement as I see it. Until John
McCain or Colin Powell or Norman Schwartzkopf run for office I don't
see a candidate I can really endorse with any enthusiasm. I'll be
damned if I neglect my duty and privilege to vote though.
Have a nice day,
Carmen
Logic would dictate that you have forgotten the price we paid for Clinton's
inaction toward terrorism. Elect Kerry, and you'll be reminded in many ways.

Lon
Carmen
2004-10-15 21:55:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lon VanOstran
Post by Carmen
Once again, religious fervor answers logical analysis. On a
cost-benefit basis Bush has proven to be too costly to the country
IMO. Kerry offers hope of improvement as I see it. Until John
McCain or Colin Powell or Norman Schwartzkopf run for office I don't
see a candidate I can really endorse with any enthusiasm. I'll be
damned if I neglect my duty and privilege to vote though.
Logic would dictate that you have forgotten the price we paid for Clinton's
inaction toward terrorism. Elect Kerry, and you'll be reminded in many ways.
If you are referring to the Twin Towers both party's administrations
failed America on that one. Not just one.
Why do so few people look at the *whole* picture politically? There's
nary a politician I can come up with who is even close to perfect.
The folks (like the ones I mentioned above) don't run for president
because they know that the political system chews people and their
families up and spits them out. The Bush girls act up and all of a
sudden people jump all over Bush politically. Why? Kerry's wife
gives a reporter what for and they jump on Kerry. Again, why? If
Colin Powell ran they'd rake him over the coals because his wife takes
medication for chronic depression. If John McCain ran they'd rake up
some story about a low spot in his captivity when he wasn't as strong
as usual and broke a bit. *Good* people don't run. We have to choose
from the ones whose ambition outstrips other considerations.

I don't believe that Kerry will end up as president frankly.
Americans on the whole don't think about their choices in terms of the
country as a whole. They vote on baser grounds. I'm bracing myself
for another Bush term, and worsening conditions. I think Iran is
likely next on his "To Do" list. It may well come down to a coalition
alright, but I think we'll be its target.

Take care,
Carmen
Lone Haranguer
2004-10-15 23:06:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmen
I don't believe that Kerry will end up as president frankly.
It would be a disaster if he did.
Post by Carmen
Americans on the whole don't think about their choices in terms of the
country as a whole. They vote on baser grounds.
Personal considerations outweigh concern for country by a considerable
margin among liberals. I think that is less so among conservatives.

BTW, the Annenberg Foundation took a military poll which shows 69%
supporting Bush and 64% of troops in Iraq say it was worthwhile to
intervene there. You're views are obviously a minority view in the
military.

I'm bracing myself
Post by Carmen
for another Bush term, and worsening conditions. I think Iran is
likely next on his "To Do" list.
We could vacillate like Clinton did with North Korea and face another
hostile country armed with nukes. That's our worst nightmare. I think
there is an excellent reason why we are working on bunker-busting nukes.
Kerry thinks that we shouldn't be. Think that would discourage Iran?

The Euros are offering bribes to Iran to cease and desist. Clinton
tried that with North Korea and was led down the garden path. Money is
not their goal, they are ideology driven. Is that too hard to grasp?

It may well come down to a coalition
Post by Carmen
alright, but I think we'll be its target.
A coalition of terrorist-supporting states already exists. I doubt it
will dissolve any time soon. Playing 'possum is not going to improve
our position but an aggressive attitude will make terrorist states think
twice. It's already worked with Libya. Liberals don't want to talk
about the evidence that Bush is on the right track.
LZ
Madeleine
2004-10-15 03:52:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lone Haranguer
Post by Ron(Fla)
Post by Willcox
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-383722.php
The ArmyTimes poll is biased big time! It only included people with email
address's on file, mostly older career oriented and higher rank
individuals.
Ron
Those are the more mature, more educated and more experienced
professionals.
Post by Lone Haranguer
So their judgment is seasoned and based on experience under other
presidents.
I would think their opinion is the more valued for that reason.
LZ
I have seen military polls that are very different from this one. Self
selected polls are often very biased as in those who are more traditional
and have more extreme views.
--
Peace, Love and Serenity,
Madeleine
http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=madewar
William Boyd
2004-10-16 19:37:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron(Fla)
Post by Willcox
Post by Jon Porter
Post by Ron(Fla)
I just checked MSNBC's poll and Kerry is ahead again.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6243054/
Ron
And the polls at this link tell a different story.
http://www.electoral-vote.com/
Depends on which polls you want to put your faith in.
Kerry is WAY behind in this army poll :o/
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-383722.php
The ArmyTimes poll is biased big time! It only included people with email
address's on file, mostly older career oriented and higher rank
individuals.
Ron
Your cares about the polls are masking your real concerns, as you make
unfounded bias comments. Namely mostly older career oriented and higher
rank individuals. You might be comparing the rank structure with the old
nonvolunteer force and less reserve and national guard. The overall
ranks now are much higher than the 70s. The guard and reserves were only
half the number of active duty, they were the older average group. I
really did not see where they indicated that participants were only
email file individuals. But how would this make it bias?

Bill P.
--
*KERRY LIED WHILE GOOD MEN DIED*
Ron(Fla)
2004-10-16 21:42:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Boyd
Post by Ron(Fla)
Post by Willcox
Post by Jon Porter
Post by Ron(Fla)
I just checked MSNBC's poll and Kerry is ahead again.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6243054/
Ron
And the polls at this link tell a different story.
http://www.electoral-vote.com/
Depends on which polls you want to put your faith in.
Kerry is WAY behind in this army poll :o/
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-383722.php
The ArmyTimes poll is biased big time! It only included people with email
address's on file, mostly older career oriented and higher rank
individuals.
Ron
Your cares about the polls are masking your real concerns, as you make
unfounded bias comments. Namely mostly older career oriented and higher
rank individuals. You might be comparing the rank structure with the old
nonvolunteer force and less reserve and national guard. The overall
ranks now are much higher than the 70s. The guard and reserves were only
half the number of active duty, they were the older average group. I
really did not see where they indicated that participants were only
email file individuals. But how would this make it bias?
Bill P.
Bill, the following is a "selected cut" from the article. The only poll I
have any interest in is the MSNBC one because to participate you have to go
to the site, which is a news site, even if it is not a scientific survey.
And I would think that people from both party's would be accessing a major
internet public news site. Since the ArmyTimes poll does not include a
cross section of the readers, and only particular individuals were asked to
participate, it's biased. This is the only time I remember saying anything
about a poll being biased, but I may be wrong. I do not participate in the
name calling from both sides and will not argue with anyone about politics.
Everyone here has the right to filter me if they object to the 2 posts I
made here with the link to MSNBC.

Quote:
"Unlike most public opinion polls, the Military Times survey did not
randomly select those to question. Instead, subscribers with e-mail
addresses on file were sent an invitation. That means there is no
statistical margin of error for the survey - so it's impossible to calculate
how accurately the results reflect the views of Military Times readers.
The surveyed group is older, higher in rank and more career-oriented than
the military as a whole. Junior enlisted troops in particular are
underrepresented in the group that responded."

Ron
R.R.
2004-10-14 23:12:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron(Fla)
I just checked MSNBC's poll and Kerry is ahead again.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6243054/
Hard to believe.
MSNBC

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